Real Life Time: MUSH/PST: Tue Aug 6 17:57:15 2002 MST: Tue Aug 6 18:57:15 2002 CST: Tue Aug 6 19:57:15 2002 EST: Tue Aug 6 20:57:15 2002 This is the log of the chief/wiz meet held for Two Moons MUSH on 8/6/02. Issues of interest discussed include the introduction of new staffers Leila, Chirp, Rainbow, and Sola; the status of idle chieftains of various tribes; the previously discussed plans for tribal mergers, and opinions for and against; various global plots in play, such as the Zalehrin plot and the Vraeyans; functionality of the tm-chiefs mailing list. Log edited by Natil. ---------- Announcement: Traest shouts "Chiefmeet starts promptly in 2 minutes, you want to be here. @tel yourselves to #7 if you're going to participate, #10420 if you want to watch and be able to talk to the other watchers without intruding." Surfsinger emerges from Surfsinger's tent. Surfsinger has arrived. DawnStar has arrived. Traest drums his fingers, watching the +time. :) Jacynthe twiddles Traest's toes so they don't become envious of his fingers. Thorn has arrived. DawnStar waves and finds a seat somewhere where she can watch the twiddling? Traest says "Alright. First off, welcome everyone, I'm glad to see the turn out. I have a few important announcements to go over first, and then we'll get to the meat of the meeting. First off, as most of you know, TwoMoons has been understaffed for a while. I am VERY pleased to announce we have taken measures to correct that. Measures in the form of, presently, one new wizzie and three new staff memebers! Allow me to introduce them to you, one at a time." Leila returns from the Staff Offices. Leila has arrived. Traest says "First up is Leila. She is our new building wizard, along with general nice person. You'll see her around a fair bit I imagine dealing with the various issues surrounding the TwoMoons grid." Leila waves, hey. :) PreyRunner offers her a workload ;) Rainbow returns from the Staff Offices. Rainbow has arrived. Traest says "Next up is Rainbow, our new Global Roleplay staff coordinator. She'll be the point of contact for roleplays that span the world, taking ideas and implementing them, maybe throwing in a few of her own." Leila grins. "And so it begins!" ;) Rainbow waves. Shendia cheers! Natil throws rose petals about, and coordinates choruses of Preservers to sing greetings. Er, well, okay, maybe not Preservers. Rainbow eeps. No no, not preservers! Chirp returns from the Staff Offices. Chirp has arrived. Traest says "Next, Chirp, who will be the new person in charge of book apps and magic apps, replacing Srian in that role. I ask that if anyone has outstanding apps to discuss them with her, and we will be forwarding what the wizards have on file to her." Chirp watches her box fill up. "Hey guys." Jacynthe gives Chirp her best, 'Better you then me' look Leafshimmer nodnods. PreyRunner waves. Sora returns from the Staff Offices. Sora has arrived. Traest says "Finally, Sora, who will be helping Natil in her various web page duties. She'll be floating around getting information for the web page, asking questions, and the like." Traest says "Welcome to all of TwoMoons new staffers!" Natil wipes a tear of joy from her eye. .oO (I have HELP!) Sora laughs. Sora says "Another webbie." Leila refrains from remarking on how badly Natil needed help. *ducks* Natil eyes Leila over her granny glasses, and shakes her walking stick at her. Don't make me whap you, whippersnapper. ;) Sora snickers. Nightfall has arrived. Traest grins. "Already, onto the business at hand. We all have noticed that TwoMoons has been slowing down lately. Some of that is my fault, for not getting new staffers to replace leaving ones, and just being completely and utterly swamped on here and in Real Life. For that, I apologize. In addition to the new help hired on after a good month of deliberation (although they all just found out a couple hours ago :) ), my Real Life is calming down and more time can be devoted back to TwoMoons. Traest says "I know the fact that it seems staff isn't responsive at all to anything is a major concern, and it is one we are now very actively working on recifying." Traest says "In addition to these staffers, once they settle in, we may end up getting more to fill in the gaps. Also, Cloud has retired, and Srian is on Leave, pending some Real Life issues." Natil adds, "There are certain other low-level staff positions that we have deemed Things That Would be Incredibly Nice to Have, but which were not vital to the maintaining of running the game. As these get filled we will issue appropriate announcements." :) Traest says "Perhaps as a result of that, or in addition to that, players and admittedly a few chiefs are starting to disappear, and this is something that, while we can't directly correct (we can't force people around), we can indirectly fix by making TwoMoons a fun play to be. We have a very rich history to work from, and there is a LOT of interest between everyone." Traest says "Err, fun play = fun place. Typing too fast. :)" Traest hates giving speeches. :) Nightfall nods. "It's rather hard, especially for us BC's. Neither of our chiefs are here, and i'm the only one from my tribe even on." Surfsinger says "In your BC alt, yes." Natil <-- Rillwhisper and Wayfound of Lostholt, it must be noted, but I am not a chief. :) Jacynthe says "Some here hold many other roles" Traest says "To that end, two things I feel we need to do. One easy. One very hard. we have two major MUSH wide plots going on that I am aware of. Zalehrin causing all manners of havoc, and the Vraeyans doing their thing going across the continent. I would like to see more plots of this scale, and the current plots get used. I know I've poked a few people into this area, but it is something to think about." Traest says "Next, the very hard thing to do. It cannot be argued we have idle chiefs. The wiz council has been hoping the players would simply vote the chief out, or whathaveyou. They have been leaving alts and BCs behind instead, and for a variety of reasons." Natil <-- also Vardeus of the Vraeyans, who are currently parked on the front porch of the Olbar village. We want to teach you folks how to forge! And about the wheel an' stuff! Hassle me. Please, god, hassle me, I want to RP s'more even if I am practically emitting my entire crew by myself. Ahem, er, I'll shut up now. ;) Chirp pats the poor Natil. WindDancer says "I have an olbar alt, but it's still a 5 year old..." Traest says "I would like to open the area now to discussions along these lines. Moderated, please, page me to get on queue. I know some suggestions in the past have been a mechanism for chiefs removing other chiefs, the wizards to watch over chiefs, minimum activity levels for chiefs, so on and so for. All have their pluses. Some have major negatives. However, the wiz council is not going to decide - it is the chiefs who will be bound to whatever is agreed to, so it should be the chiefs to decide and discuss." Traest says "First up, Shendia." Traest says "Shendia's exempt from this, since she's first, but PLEASE pre-type out what you want to say. None of us wants this to be another 7 hour chiefmeet. :)" Rahna winces. Shendia says "Well, SE's situation is...interesting. Savah has no player, so we have to look to the jackwolfrider chief as an ongame chief. That had been Gentlerock, and is now Gentlestorm. However, gentlestorm's appearances are spotty till sept. 1, and GS refuses to accept a permanent chief position, and refuses to name anyone else chief, either IC or OOC. I am temp. ooc 2d, but i don't even get chief mailings. this is a big problem, as I can't help the tribe if GS doesn't let me know what's going on." Shendia says "This creates a problem when chiefs don't want to be chiefs but also don't want someone else to be chief. GS in particular sites IC reasons for it, that it's a line of chiefs from son to son (or daughters). that leaves everyone else in the dust with no chief." Shendia is done. Traest says "Next up is Dawnstar" DawnStar has just got to add a small part about the whole mush plots. "Zale and I were pulling very late hours for quite some time trying to pull of just the Plains part of that arch. But unless we were pushing the story ourselves the interest in it dropped off quickly. It became harder and harder to bring ourselves to the story. Every time we told people to run with the twists and just let us know, the silence was deafening. But if we started pushing it, to get anywhere with the plot, some ran wild trying to solve it all at one time. " "With that said, I think the mushwide plots are great! They are just a bear to maintain the momentum if we don't get any help from the players. The ones that showed up were there, despite the late hour that rl forced us to keep. But it was hard to count on them to let us know what the twists were that they wanted to see. There was little input from the players on the side stories that should have developed. So.. I guess I would suggest that if we push the whole world plots, that we also stress the need for input from the players to keep them alive. If only for the sanity of those driving the plot." Traest notes Rainbow was hired on, partially, to help with that. Get the word out, help chiefs figure out ways to get involved, so on and so forth. Running a global RP is A LOT of work, and needs staffy help. Next up is Natil. You say "Okay." You say "I have three things to say; first of all, regarding the Zalehrin plot, I am working on a new angle for that. Those of you who have been around here close to as long as I have may or may not recall that Zalehrin is not the first Wacky Mad Firstborn we have had running around; in fact, we have had another in past RP, Doreel. I have been responsible for a considerable amount of RP involving the old dear, and as we speak am arranging to have him captured by Lostholt, since Lostholt has a pretty big IC history with him and from their point of view right now, he is suspect #1 for making the monsters. ;) I am hoping that Lostholt can capture and heal him, and possibly throw him at Zalehrin to maybe be nobly killed off, since Zalehrin can kick his ass, magically speaking. If you've got a Lostholt alt and you want in on this RP, come talk to me. " Nightfall nods. You say "Secondly, I wanted to note that a couple of the low-priority staff positions that I have advised Traest would be Real Nice to Have would be people in charge of troll and human affairs. Right now, the trolls are pretty much dead in the water; people don't really want to play them. However, this does not mean that people don't want to use them as plot devices, and it would be nice to have a staffer who is in charge of saying 'Well, the Northern trolls are going to do '. Similarly, it would be real nice to have a staffer in charge of human affairs, although we do have viable human PCs. The Olbar are obviously a viable group, and I am hoping to add to their viability by having Vardeus' group hanging out with them. However, the Hoan g'Tay Sho are practically dead in the water, and it would be real nice to have a staffer who is in charge of saying 'The Hoan are going to do '. If there is any interest from you folks out there in such a job, please let the staff know. Done. :)" Traest says "Next up, a quick announcement from Sora" Sora says "I would like to say that I need everyone with tribal webpages to get their updated info to Natil and myself. If you had someone running the page who is now gone, let us know and we will work to get it back online, under our direction. I will personally maintain the website if I have to. If not, ask your tribes who might be interested in helping maintain the tribe's webpage. We need dependable people who will do this." Traest says "Next up, Thorn" Thorn notes that there is a reasonable answer to Shendia's problem, which has been invoked int he Plainsrunners, due to his thinking it was silly to be rolling over IC chiefs every few years just because someone OOCly wandered off - we split the IC and OOC chieftaincy. He's now been IC chief for a long, long while - but the OOC chieftaincy/chief-second has rotated a few times, as folks had time or didn't, came or went, etc. Thorn <-- not quite as long-lasting as Natil, but close :P And done. Shendia says "I don't want the SE IC chiefship, just OOC chiefship, as I'm tired of waiting for GS to get in gear." Chirp thinks that is what Thorn just said. Zasia has arrived. Traest says "Next up, Whitestar." DawnStar agrees with Thorn "It has worked quite well for us. I let him know what plots are there and get his reactions when he is unable to join in because of rl. He lets me know what decisions he made for how the tribe will react.. the latest plot is a perfect example of how well it worked.' Surfsinger interrupts as well. Sorry... "We've done something similar to the Plains in the Raft, with Cadence being IC chief only, leaving the rest to the OOC cheif team." Whitestar has -nothing- ready to be cut and pasted yet. One sec. Whitestar says "The way to solve a problem of a lack of roleplay is to, simply, have roleplay. Now, as we've all noticed (and I'm just as, if not more, guilty than anyone else) players as a general rule do not come up with their own plots. To reach the Nirvanic end state of roleplay on any given day people need to be enticed and convinced that logging on is fun and worth their time. We need plots, and we need -good- plots. This is a text based medium in an age of vivid graphics - why should new players come here? Elfquest is also not the hot burning commodity it was ten years ago. " Whitestar says "1) We need to get people to log on and play. Plots do this. People don't come up with plots. So staff (and in this I include chiefs) need to. 2) People need to be enticed to stay. This is done with not only plots, but with marketing and goodwill. Plots are no good if people are not having fun. A case in point is the OOC problem in Blue Mountain awhile back - though there were plots, no one wanted to play anymore. This needs to be fixed. 3) Umm.. I'm sure I had a third point, but as I was taken aback by being in the queue so quickly, I honestly forgot. I'm done." Traest says "Next up, Firesong" Firesong says "Okay, I had a couple of points to make. I haven't had time to keep track of the various elfquest mailing lists and newsgroups, but perhaps an ad campaign in that medium may help bring some new people in. And the second point follows Whitestar's comments. Plots are all well and good, but the most successfully active periods in tribes that I've had have not been driven by major plots, they've been driven by active players, just showing up and roleplaying. I could only get one other of my tribemates to travel to the big plot on the plains, they're just not logging in at all anymore. " Traest says "Next up Jacynthe" Jacynthe says "Bear with me... I just paged so I have to type now" Traest says "BTW. Just so everyone knows, I WILL be asking for a vote at the end of this chiefmeet as to what to do about idle chiefs. Multiple choice as to solutions, either that I've mentioned or provided here. (I should have mentioned this earlier, I'm sorry). Keep that in mind, and if you have questions, get on the queue and ask, and staff will answer." Jacynthe says "Plots are all well and good. And it is true that players do not often come up with them and leave that all to the chiefs to do. But plots are not everything. I know I had a period with the Olbar where I mailed the tribe with a plot a week... setting up a day and time and everything. And typically I was the only one who showed... maybe my second would too, but that's about it. You can have all the plots in the world and if no one shows then you have nothing. It is no fun to play with yourself, you tend to find out how boring you actually are. The problem is deeper then that, though I can't say that I know a good solution. The Olbar picked up with I'd say little help from me... I kept posting away at the bboards advertising for peopled and eventually they came. Yes, chiefs need to be up and visible and come up with plots, but it isn't everything. We need more. And some of it is just being helpful. I have built countless Mountain alts, and never heard a word from a Mountain chief... until finally I gave up trying. That's not the only tribe like that. I know I have one idle chiefbit myself, but Clearwater asked me to keep WildDeer bitted to help her with things and to answer questions so I do... but mostly it's about being active and involving the people you know. The raft picked up because the Chiefs grabbed their friends and said play... and people saw there was roleplay and it was good... and we got new people. Plots are not it... Roleplay is. If people see more then one person from a tribe in the same room together they say... Oooh they have roleplay. If they don't then all the plots in the world won't help." Jacynthe says "And done" Traest says "Next up, Leafshimmer" Leafshimmer notes that when I went off to the Palace, I had lots of rp. We stopped by Blue Mountain and travelled here and there, and there were folks all logged in. I took a vacation and most of those folks left. So long as I had a plot going, I could get folks to rp. If I'd start rp, something would happen. If I didn't ... well, there were a few others willing to take on the chore. Most of the time though, it seems to be the same 7 or 8 people plotting. And then they burn out, and activity drops. For the tribes, it might be a thought to have Briarholt and Warren merge. That would help out perhaps with the Wolfrider situation, but I'm not sure we can decide this tonight. I'm okay with it - even if I lose my chiefbit. If it helps the game, that's all to the good. Leafshimmer is done. Traest says "Question from Thorn" Thorn says "ARe there any situations where a tribe is active, even marginally, but has an inactive chief, and *haven't* voted to remove the chief?" Traest says "Announcement to folks in the chatterbox - If you guys have a question, page your chief and they'll get in on your behalf. If no chief is present, page me." Leila adds, "Or suggestions!" Traest answers. "We have not have a tribal vote for a chief removal in a very, very long time. Thorn says "Partial answer. That tells me we've had no votes. Do we have any *active* tribes with *inactive* chiefs, then?" Shendia says "SE. We still have about 3 or 4 of us who try to get on, and the chief hasn't been on in a while, but GS would so kill me if I caused her to be voted out. I will talk to her." Thorn says "Okay. So. We have one situation where it's to protect the chief's feelings." Nightfall says "I honestly haven't seen Cutter in a little while." Thorn is mostly getting at 'why haven't these tribes voted' - we have a procedure. Shendia says "I never knew we could vote." Surfsinger says "Most don't." Traest says "news chief removal" PreyRunner says "It's not really prevalent." Thorn hmmms. Thorn has a suggestion, briefly, though he'll re-queue if Traest wants him to. Traest says "Go ahead, Thorn" DawnStar is guilty of never reading news files unless she needs to.. why would a tribe do that because they were bored? Rahna says "They wouldn't. They would do that because they are LOOKING for something." Thorn says "If the wizards notice a chief being significantly idle (which I would think would be semi-obvious, since players woudl tend to go to them if they couldn't get the chief, one would think... though that may be suspect), and the tribe isn't doing anythign about it... perhaps they should mail the tribe a notice about it, and a pointer to 'news chief removal' to remind them that they have a choice to make, at that point." Thorn doesn't know if that would suffice, but it would remedy the lack-of-information problem without totally revamping the existing structure (which seems like it should work, but isn't being used) Thorn says "Tribes so inactive that *nobody* has time to be chief.... well, they're probably already crusing for removal." Thorn is done, he thinks. Traest says "Next up, WindDancer" WindDancer says "I just wanted to comment one the "more than one person in a tribe's room generating RP" thing. I have sent two of my alts wandering before, just to find RP, and I did just what Jacynthe mentioned. I picked the place where I saw the most people on regularly to RP with them. I think with some of the tribes, we need to merge so that we'd have more active players together than apart. " PreyRunner has a question, instead of a statement. Traest queues Prey Traest says "BTW Everyone, yet another Handy Command. See +where2" Traest says "+where2 shows everyone online, grouped by room." Firesong loves +where2. :) Traest says "Next up: Zasia" Traest says "+where2 has been there for months!: )" Traest thinks he'll just replace +where with +where2 Zasia's been guilty of being inactive before, mostly because of real life. I'm not making excuses, simply stating that at one time or another it has, or will, happen to everyone. This really isn't the point I'm making, but it was a nice jumping off point for what I am wanting to say. The Underworlders, being the underground version of the Gliders, aren't nice, fluffy bunny types. It's happened in the past that chiefs of both tribes have gotten others upset because the plots they've come up with aren't 'safe'. Sometimes they got people active, sometimes they didn't. Plots are good, rp is good. But things are too spread out here, we need consolidation. And, I apologize for the scatteredness of my statements, blame it on the codine. Leila says "That'd be nice." Thorn likes both, but wouldn't care if they were flipped, Traest :) Chirp likes the more... concise one. Traest will flip them then. "Next up is PreyRunner PreyRunner says "Ok, this is simple. I'll be the first to admit I haven't been as active as I should of been lately, I think burn out is the most prevalent reason. I had busted my hump and so did my few active players over a year ago and rebuilt the tribe from extinction to more then 30 active players... Real life reared it's ugly head and I took a months leave, after forewarning people... I come back and I'm down to 7 players. Even having constant rp, this place fluctuates worse then the stock market. Now, my question is... of those who actually still log on here, how many are really active? I barely see enough active people for 3 tribes if that."" PreyRunner says "More... rp'ing with the same 3 people or so... gets boring, how many times can you have a hunt, around hte fire, a howl, etc, before boredom takes over? (done)" Traest says "A side note - one of the extra positions will be in charge of PR, which we have been lacking lately. We are running low on players, and there's a lot we can do to help that. More details in the future. :) Next up is everyone's favorite Natil. :)" You say "Why thank you." Rainor has arrived. Natil bows, and notes that the need to fix the problem that PreyRunner describes, i.e., 'too damned many hunts and howls and hanging around the fire eating dreamberries' RP getting boring, is one of the many reasons that I wanted to bring in my humans from over the sea. To bring something new into the mix, and hopefully broaden some horizons. I was telling Traest earlier today that a big problem we have with our theme is that elves, by their very IC natures, are very resistant to change; they are immortal, more or less, even given the wolf-blood in Wolfriders, who are long-lived enough to more or less count as immortal for MUSH play purposes. A lot of elves would IC be quite happy to live out their days hunting and howling and munching dreamberries... this just makes it harder for us, the players, to come up with things that can happen to make RP interesting. We've got the global plot coordinator for this now... so please, folks, think of ways to not only shake your characters' worlds up for a day or a season... but if you think of things that can happen to have long-reaching effects on the land at large, TELL US. :) Done. Traest nodders. "Also, folks, if you have suggestions for how to get the word out about TwoMoons, let us know. Even though we don't have a specific position for it yet, we do have general people who will handle it. :) And assume we know of nothing (peanut gallery quiet, please) so tell us EVERY place you can think of. Send these in a +mail to staff, please. :)" Traest notes, however, MudNet is a bane of my existance. :) Traest says "So, it seems we have three burning issues that need some sort of resolution from this meeting. 1) Idle chiefs. It sounds like the best idea so far is maybe a global +mail to everyone letting them know about that news entry (we can slip it in with a general announcement of this meet) and see where it goes from there. 2) Global Roleplays - We have Rainbow to swamp down with all of this, and I know I have a few ideas I'll give her - I encourage everyone else to do the same. I encourage players running RPs to bring Rainbow up to speed ASAP - she can help and try and get all the other chiefs into it somehow, and she has some ideas on how to make global RPs more accessable. She does have a lot of experience in this field, so make use of her. 3) Tribal condensing. This was brought up in the last meet with no resolution. Some thoughts are that there are too many wolfrider tribes, the cat elves and go-backs are too far away, etc etc." Traest thinks 1 and 2 have been discussed enough as-is, and we at least have a resolution for now for #1 and #2. So, #3.... Traest says "Next up is Whitestar" Traest says "BTW - Just had a suggestion: A staffer who can step in and handle OOC chiefy roles automatically when/if OOC chiefs go idle. Queue in thoughts. :)" Whitestar says "Tribe condensing is something I can speak to with some authority. Before that, however, there is one more point I think needs (at least for my own peace of mind) to be said, and that is that players will not stay if there is a breach of trust. I won't get into details - I don't think I need to - but that, more than anything else, is vital. " Whitestar says "I've been trying to understand the argument that reducing the number of tribes (primarily wolfrider tribes) will increase roleplay. I want someone to correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that argument like this: Presupposition 1) There are too many wolfriders. Presupposition 2) There are too many wolfrider tribes. Presupposition 3) There are so many areas for roleplay, characters (primarily wolfrider) never meet up. Resolution 1) Reduce the number of wolfriders, or prohibit their growth, by preventing new wolfrider characters from chargen. Resolution 2) Reduce the number of wolfrider tribes. Perceived outcome 1) More roleplay will ensue due to a decreased wolfrider:empty room ratio (e.g., 1 wolfrider:10 rooms will become 1 wolfrider:5 rooms). " Whitestar says "That said, I'd like to present three history lessons and some logic. History Lesson 1) Green Isle. Does anyone remember Green Isle? Or where they went? If so, you'll remember that they merged with the sea elves at the time, in an effort to consolodate areas of roleplay to increase probability of roleplay. It failed. " Whitestar says "History Lesson 2) The Plainsrunners. Does anyone remember two Plainsrunner tribes? If so, you'll remember that they merged togeter in an effort to consolodate areas of roleplay to increase probability of roleplay. After Dancinghawk left, roleplay on the plains dwindled fast. " Whitestar has this all in a text file - should I slow down? Traest will let people digest for a bit. Whitestar says "Recent History Lesson 3) Wolfhaven and Ravenholt. The first thing I would like to do is clear up a misconception. -I-, not Leaffall, was the instigator behind the Wolfhaven and Ravenholt merge. At the time there were good IC and OOC reasons for it. * Leaffall was the direct cub of the Ravenholt chieftess and the Wolfhaven chief, and so had a claim to both tribes. * There were blood ties via other members of each tribe. * The two tribes had conglomerated on prior occasions. " Whitestar says "Both tribes were semi-active at the time and in a state of decline. We (read: I) felt that merging the two tribes would give each tribe the necessary spark to ignite roleplay infernos. There were enough IC ties between the two tribes that the theory was entirely feasible. We even spent a good amount of time putting together a plot that would cause this merge and, for awhile, the idea worked. The tribes merged, roleplay was prevalent, and then it just died. Dead. Gone. *splop* " Whitestar says "I typically don't like cliche's. However, I feel compelled to point out that those who do not study their history are bound to repeat it. In the case of Wolfhaven and Ravenholt, we had a textbook scenario for merging tribes: blood ties, friendship ties, plots, and the complete and utter destruction of one of the holts. This fits exactly the model for reducing tribes: an IC reason for them to merge, and an end result of a greater elf:room ratio. So what went wrong? " Whitestar says "Two things, one IC, one OOC. OOC Reason 1) Not everyone wanted the merge. We went ahead despite the opposition of a few. They left, and took their roleplay with them. (Granted, if all the tribes on the mush were to merge, there would be no where for them to go on the mush. They'd probably leave the mush entirely.) IC Reason 1) There were no continued plots. We had a great plot to get everyone going, but once it ended, we didn't follow up. There was nothing for anyone to do. It didn't matter that there were now 40 or 50 elves in Ravenholt: people logged on and sat idle due to a lack of plots. Then they quit logging on. And now Ravenholt, like the majority of the mush, is roleplay-less. " Whitestar feels compelled to return to his original point that people won't come up with plots on their own. Merging tribes just to get people closer together isn't enough, and it might very well backfire if that is the major plot to push. Traest lets people digest some more. :) Traest says "Next up: Leafshimmer" Thorn <-- token Eastern Plainsrunners player :) PreyRunner gives Thorn a token o:) Leafshimmer notes - as for the Cat elves, there has been talk about a shorter more accessible route to Briarholt from the jungles, but it seems to have gotten stalled. I'm not sure if that's realistic or not, but if it can be worked out, then we can continue working on it. DawnStar eyes her mate and grins "I knew there was something strange about you" Traest says "Next up, Natil. :)" You say "Regarding tribal mergers -- nobody is claiming that they are the be-all and end-all of How to Make RP happen again. However, I would like to offer as counterexamples the fact that several Willowholt refugees, when I took out the Willowholt, moved to Lostholt and have certainly in the past contributed to the RP there; I am in fact stepping up to the plate to contribute to the RP there again. Also, I am given to understand that many Kymian refugees have shown up at Sorrow's End, though Shendia is in a better position than I to comment upon whether or not this has overall helped the RP at the Sun Village. " You say "And certainly, nobody is going to hold guns to people's heads and say YOU MUST MERGE YOUR TRIBE WITH YOUR NEIGHBOR! But... by the same token, I would like to ask chiefs who are having major RP issues right now to simply consider whether this is an option that would work for them. Considering what has happened with mergers in the past should certainly not be discounted, but IMO, what is more vital to consider are the needs of the game _now_. I.e., would it help us _now_ to merge certain tribes? And don't just consider the Wolfriders, either. consider the possibilities of whether plunking two entirely disparate groups of elves into the same environment might be good for some long-term action. It gets back to what I was saying about looking for ways to shake up your characters' worlds. What would happen if you forced the Go-Backs to try to move in with a more southerly tribe? What would happen if a small group of Wolfriders needed to move in with the Cat Elves? Etc. Done. :)" Traest says "Next up, Rahna!" Rahna takes a nice deep breath... Rahna says "I think that the issues with too many wolfrider tribes needs to be decided in a large setting like this, with the different tribes present. I do not have as much as a wolfrider chief to contribute to this, because condensing wolfrider tribes does not affect my tribe personally and immediately. I think the gobacks and Cat Elves are such a completely different ball of wax, that they are essentially a separate topic. They are too far from the action, as opposed to simply being idle. It seems to me it might be better addressed separately from the tribe-condensing issues. " Chirp bows out for sleep. "Good day." Chirp enters the Staff Offices. Chirp has left. PreyRunner unfortunately does the same... g'night, I'll read the log. Rahna says "As for the condensing... I think that No New Tribes (for the foreseeable future) should really be simply made Hard Fact. I can't think of a single reason that another tribe should be created until the currently existing tribes can sustain themselves. I don't agree that forbidding new wolfrider chars should be put into effect though. For one, it prevents anyone who wants to contribute an active alt to help out those tribes from doing so, and also, we need new blood on this game. Without it we're going to tank, as we lose the current players to RL, slowly but surely. We won't all personally be here forever and ever. New people are needed. Who are the heroes of the paperbound EQ? Wolfriders. What will the newest blood entering the game want to be? A wolfrider. Ban new Wolfriders? Ouch. " Whitestar says "And I. I've said that I've needed. Night." Rahna says "I agree that if you don't remember your history, you are doomed to repeat it. But I don't think the only possible lesson to be taken from that Ravenholt/Wolfhaven example is "This cannot work." How about "Address the problems, such as the plots not being maintained, next time"? In regards to Natil's suggestion, as far as using the CATS for that, it again comes down to our location. We, currently, are too far away for any tribe besides possibly Briarholt to consider hooking up with us, disaster or no. We're not The Closest Tribe to ANYONE, really. Not with a mountain range blocking things. This needs to be addressed, but as I said before, I think it's a different topic, so can be tackled separately. " Natil notes wryly to Rahna, briefly and off-queue, "Not trying to pick on the Cat Elves personally, just suggesting random examples." ;) (Shuts up again) Rahna grins, and didn't think you were really. ;) Zasia's going to slink off to bed. I can't keep my eyes open any more. Traest says "Alrighty. 2 hours is about long enough for a chiefmeet, we've gotten a couple things decided, you all know about the staffer announcements. I would ask that every chief take a careful stock of what they have to work with. Each tribe is here because there IS something special about them - location, culture, fears, etc. We need to keep an eye out for happy bunny RPs, but also realize that darker RP tends to stir people more and is a change. A lot of those have been botched in the past (I know the Underworlder/SorrowsEnd fiasco was... a fiasco) but it doesn't mean things shouldn't be looked at in the future. Example, the Underworld is about to have a run-in with Vardeus and Co. (mohahaha) after a lot of thinking on how to get the Underworld involved. Again, having a staffer specifically for that will help. (more)" Thorn hears UW/SE fiasco, and thinks of the first appearance of the UW in public. :P Firesong hears UW/Seafarers and shudders at the possibilities. Traest says "The wolfrider/tribal-merger ideas however, is something that is not going to be decided tonight. However, we cannot let it linger forever. So, the staff will take what's been discussed here, and come up with one possible scenerio. That will be sent around to the chiefs for a period of discussion, changes, etc. Once a final draft is made, it will be voted on by all the chiefs. I encourage a lot of discussion, both with staff and amongst yourselves. There are a lot of things to consider, and has been mentioned before, a lot of pitfalls. (More)" DawnStar hears UW and thinks of that deep cave that was in the plains and shudders Surfsinger has one question... Traest says "Shoot, Surf." Natil notes to Firesong, "Shudder for my poor humans. The Underworlders could seriously pick on them. ;P I'm going to be doing real well to keep them from just trying to enslave my Tall Ones, I am. :)" Surfsinger says "Chief email list. I recall something about a revamping of it. Has that been done? Is it being done? I'm probably just missing something. I know my email's changed so I know I haven't been getting anything that way for the past little while." Sora says "I'd be glad to set up a new chief email list" You say "The chiefs list is still functioning and is still locked to being posted to only by the people who are subscribed to it." Sora says "ah, nevermind." You say "However, there is also a contact form set up on the main tm web page by which people who are not subscribed to the chiefs list can send to it, if need be." Rahna which solved the spam issue beautifully, thank you Natil. :) You say "You are quite welcome." Rahna says "Er, which solved the spam issue beautifully, thank you Natil. :)" Rahna has a cat in he rlap, makes typing awkward. Natil adds, "Any chiefs not on the list, please to gimme yer email addies." Surfsinger nodnods. "Okay, thanks. I just need to give you my address, then, 'cause I think I'm not on it." Traest says "...after which we'll sign you up for 500 viagra advertisements. :)" Leafshimmer hasn't seen anything there lately either. Come to think of it. Rainbow wonders if perhaps a test message is in order? You say "Nobody's been posting anything." Firesong says "I think its been pretty quiet. Last messages I've gotten from it are in relation to the spam problem in April." Surfsinger didn't even see the April spam. Sora says "where is the list housed?" Jacynthe says "Same here Fires" Leila says "Discussing the issues from tonight would be a good use of that list, though. :)" You say "Yes." You say "The list is housed on murkworks.net, which is my house internet site, which is also the home of the tm web page as well as several tribal web pagesm." Sora says "K." You say "tm-chiefs@murkworks.net will work, but so will tm-chiefs@twomoonsmush.org since that domain maps over to murkworks.net anyway." Traest says "And for attending this chiefmeet, everyone gets 510 XP and 320 GP! You get Cold Materia! Oh...... wait........ :)" Sora cackles. Jacynthe pokes Traest with a wiffle stick Traest ahems. "Any final questions?" WindDancer says "Yeah, where's the waffle maker?" Traest points back in the Staff Offices. WindDancer nods. "Belgian waffles for everyone!" Rainor says "Should I take drafting /and/ computer assisted design in the same semester to qualify for a small 150 dollar Scholarship?" WindDancer waves, goes back home, and waffles. Traest chuckles and nods. "Meeting dismissed, then. :)" DawnStar has one suggestion? "There was enough rumor and hints of closing the doors here.. It would really help morale some if there was a huge noise that we intend to keep going, hopefully stronger than ever before' Nightfall says "What does this button doooooo?" Traest nods to DawnStar. "I think we can arrange that. :)" Sora says "I think it was said that we are going to do everything in our power to keep that from happening." Sora says "Should be evident at least." You say "Given that we have four shiny new staffers, I think we may have some life in us yet. :)" Sora is still kickin. Surfsinger says "Regardless, it doesn't hurt to reinforce the open-for-business concept." You say "Indeed." Traest nods. You say "And thanks for bringing that up. :)" Leila is open for business1 DawnStar smiles at Sora.. "I know we said everything in our power. However those not blessed with chiefbits really need the boost. Otherwise.. why bother' Sora says "I have photoshop, i can play with some banners and stuff to advertise on my personal websites." Traest says "Natil, on the web page,

We're open!

please? :)" Natil snickers. You say "Any last commentary before I close the log?" Sora says "I actually have a banner somewhere that i made..." Traest says "OH!" Traest says "I have one more thing" Traest pokes everyone. "I'm still looking for more submissions for a new login banner for the MUSH. I've received 2. SUBMIT! :)" Sora says "Like, what goes on a login banner?" Traest says "A new design for our Welcome to TwoMoons ASCII login screen" Rahna sighs, "And mine you had to toss, because it wasn't working right, yes?" Traest is waiting for a resubmission from you, Rahna. :) Sora says "i know, but like what? the name, a catchy phrase, what?" Rahna will see what she can do, once she gets home after this week. WindDancer goes home. WindDancer has left. Traest says "A new layout... It needs to mention our Name, how to contact the wizzen by email, the commands to connect and create characters. Everything else is up to you." Leafshimmer scoots out. G'night all. Leafshimmer goes home. Leafshimmer quietly enters LeafShimmer's Tent . Leafshimmer has left. Nightfall goes home. Nightfall has left. Shendia says "Night folks." Shendia goes home. Shendia has left. You say "Log closed!" [End log.]