From: Andrew Gray [grayaw *AT* blargh *DOT* com]
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 10:47 AM
To: Anna Korra'ti
Subject: Last night's log

You head towards the Natil's Glade.

Natil's Glade(#6789RJ)

This appears to be a sheltered glade somewhere in a wood; how you got here
is anyone's guess. Surrounding the glade are willow, alder, and rowan trees,
their branches interlocked to provide a leafy canopy overhead, through which
an ethereal, liquid starlight filters. Between these guarding trees is an
open space carpeted with soft grass, fallen leaves, and flowers. The air is
fresh and sweet with the scent of green growing things, and the bubbling
music of falling water sounds in the distance.

Larias has arrived.

Winnowill has arrived.

PreyRunner has arrived.

Gentlestorm has arrived.

Redstar has arrived.

Gentlestorm bows to all! =)

PreyRunner despams, whew.

Redstar says "Easy room number to remember."

Winnowill promises to be on her best behavior.

Natil nods to Redstar. :)

Gentlestorm kills the chief channel, anyhow. =)

Redstar tries to eye Winnowill then smirks.

Rhaevin has arrived.

Natil thinks she'll start by offering a condensed summary of what I'm seeing
coming in off the LJ, for starters.

Natil says "I sent a summary of this nature to tm-staff, so I'll repeat that
here."

Gentlestorm wonders if it is okay to talk OOC IC since we're in Natil's
office?

Larias is reading it now... oy

Gentlestorm listens to Natil's summary.

Natil says "Yes, we're purely OOC here, so don't worry about the command.
:)"

Natil says "Okay, point #1:"

Redstar sits back and listens.

Natil says "'Complete and utter restart' is in a solid lead on the Restart
or Not? question on the poll. Several folks are arguing passionately in
favor of this, and the prevailing reasons as to why seem to be the sheer
weight of inertia on the game bogging things down. <more coming>"

Natil says "Point #2: HOWEVER, 'please god don't restart!' is also getting
passionately argued for. Traest has also informed me similar feedback is
coming to him."

PreyRunner noddles.

Natil says "Therefore, the restart question is by no means settled. It's
merely one option under consideration and under no circumstances set in
stone."

Natil says "Which brings me to point #3:"

Natil says "There is a HUGE wave of sentiment on the LJ thread that the OOC
infrastructure of the game needs a LOT more work than the IC one. There is
huge frustration with the overally inactivity of the chiefs, staff, wizards,
and Book Characters. One of the most frequently posting anonymous posters
has brought up unpalatable but unfortunately very valid questions on issues
of us needing to actually enforce inactivity policies on Staff, Chiefs, and
Wizards. Traest ran numbers and came up with a full HALF of the chiefs not
being active. <more coming>"

Natil says "To this I will also add that as of last night, Leila has
resigned. So that wiz position is now open, and we'll be needing a building
wiz."

Traest is here, BTW, but going to be fairly quiet, really busy at the
moment.

Redstar hmms and nods slowly while she takes in all these points.

Rhaevin says "Natil..."

Natil says "Point #4: Huge frustration with the quality of RP on the game,
or lack thereof. The Staff is already considering at least one solution for
this, which is to say, a points-based/+nomination system related to the one
that was used on the first incarnation of AetherMUSH, which was the last
game I was active on and which I will cheerfully tell anybody who is
interested was hands down the best RP I've ever had anywhere EVER. The
players were motivated by the points-based/+nomination system to not only
work for active rewards on their own RP but also to give feedback to each
other. <more coming, almost done>"

Natil says "Point #5: There is also huge frustration with the difficulty of
setting up new characters, applying for Book Characters, and applying for
magic."

Natil says "Those are the main thrusts I'm getting off the LJ at the
moment."

Natil opens the floor. :)

Sora arrives from the Staff Offices.

Sora has arrived.

Larias hehs about the magic and character creation... I don't know. I just
don't see that from where I sit, then again, I already posted such in LJ.
I've apped magics, I've made new characters, I've never run into issues.
Maybe I'm lucky or weird, dunno.

Natil waits for Rhaevin's question?

Rhaevin says "A 'restart' from my experience is an act of desperation on the
staff's behalf to try and control something they have lost control of, and
frequently it becomes a self destructive cycle where every so often the game
needs to be 'blown up' and reset. My question would be ... why does the
staff feel the game needs to be restarted?"

Gentlestorm doesn't see it either, Larias but...

Natil says "Part of the reason we're thinking about the restart option is to
try to figure out whether a lot of what has been reported to us over the
years as major problems require that drastic a solution. Let me describe
some of these problems."

PreyRunner passes out the popcorn and coffee.

Natil says "#1: Over and over and over, over the years, we have had
complaints that the tribes are too insular and that it's very hard to get
them to interact with one another. Some of this is due to Elfquest canon,
but some of it is ALSO due to the huge IC size of our playing space. We're
covering an entire CONTINENT, folks, and when most of our player characters
IC aren't inclined to travel around much, it makes it tough to invent
reasons to actually go to where the RP is. <more coming>"

Winnowill has not seen the problems in apping BC, as her existence denotes..
I was actually surprised at the total lack of interest in the Char. And it
was avail for a LONG time. I don't think that's a big issue, the BC,
acceptance, magic's thing, more like a very vocal symptom of a larger issue.
Player discontent.

PreyRunner politely disagrees, Winny :) and goes quiet.

Redstar agrees with Prey there.

Natil says "#2: The humans and trolls are hopelessly underused. Again, part
of this is due to Elfquest canon being focused on, well, the ELVES. But in
order to present a well-rounded world to the playerbase, we also need to be
accounting for what the other races are doing. Some small few players are
interested in playing those races; we need to have that as an option if we
can. We also need to have a far better organized structure for how to manage
humans and trolls. This is part of why Sora and Twinkle recently took those
jobs on, though I will also add that Sora's needing to hand off trolls to
someone if at all possible, 'cause she's got a pretty full plate now. <more
coming>"

Natil says "Let me emphasize again that this is NOT, repeat, NOT decided
firmly or set in stone. <more coming>"

Natil says "I think that if we can come up with a solution that allows us to
fix as many of our problems as possible while not restarting, we'll embrace
that course of action. :) <more coming>"

Winnowill says "Have we thought of aping a MMORPG style of Newbie. New
players, all start out as humans in "Newbie town." You get to learn basics
of mushing there, learn history at a library, without messing around with
elf specific code, sending magics ect. this would get folks playing humans
even for just a bit.. and that would help. Then you could "graduate" and
make an elf. In the mean time you would have an accepted human char to play
and have fun with others, while waiting on word of your tribal acceptance,
ect."

Natil thinks a minute... as I said on channel, folks, I can't quite promise
brilliance right now because I'm tired and headachy. But, the lack of
ability to make non-elves interesting to potential new players, as well as
the unwieldy IC size of the grid, are two of the big reasons we're
considering whether a change of IC environment is desirable or warranted.

Natil thinks that'll be enough discussion fodder for now. Traest wants to
jump in for a minute, folks.

Rhaevin waits for Natil's explanation. "Traveling is a player based thing or
a TP/RP based thing. Either Chiefs do not present enough TPs to get their
tribe out and interacting with others, or players merely have no reason to
get off their duff and go visit Uncle Eddie in the Marsh." ;) "Mind you they
don't have to be monumentous plots either. Goodness knows you don't need to
blow up half the world to get folks to interact with one another. As we've
seen that's haveing little success already. You can't force players to do
something they don't want, you can offer or dangle stuff out there for them,
or make it needed, a reward at the end of the rainbow, but in the end, it's
still the players who will decide."

Rhaevin says "Secondly... Traest, do you mind?"

PreyRunner says "He's idle."

Traest would just like to note a couple things: 1) Again, like Natil said,
this is just an idea we had for a possible solution. We're bouncing it off
everyone to see what their reaction is. We have seen it is roughly divided
half (right now) between "Don't Restart" and "Please restart", with a number
of the Don't Restarters saying They Will Not Come Back if we do Restart. 2)
In addition to the points/+nom, we are looking at a couple other things to
help stir up roleplay. One being +rumor code. (more)

You say "3) You may remember there was a LOT of discussion about points a
while ago, and then it just disappeared. There was a reason for this: While
the present code set IS set up to handle points (it was designed that way,
however it is presently disabled), it was disabled at the last second
because of concern that some people were wanting to use points for
absolutely everything. We do not want to become a MUD, however, the points
system has a LOT of merit. I would like to hear thoughts on using points as
well. Keeping in mind points would be for magics for so-gifted players, and
a number of regular skills, as well. At least in the last version before
deactivation."

You say "<done>"

Natil can, if interested, elaborate further upon the +nom/points system used
on Aether and how it worked, since we're looking at it as an example system
on which ours would be based.

Natil er. can, if it is desired, she should say. Yeah, I'm a GOOD WRITER.
^_^

Larias has some rumor code in the Mountain, took a bit to get folks to use
it, now something seems to be added at least once every two weeks, And I
know myself and others HAVE used that info ICly. It wouldn't have worked,
had the players not decided to use it though.

PreyRunner puts is 2 cents in :) I'm all for a points/skill based system. It
lets you know how good you are, compared to others. It adds dimensions to
the characters and helps a player play weaknesses and strengths. Heck, bring
on the Chaosium system, I can make an alt in 20 min flat that way :)

Rhaevin offers Traest a smile, "Secondly I think that, no offence to Sora or
Twinkle, that the concern for humans and trolls needs to be toned down. I
think the focus needs to be more on the player base as a whole, which ties
in with what Traest just said about losing people if you restart. Frequently
you will lose folks once their old comfort is gone, and you'll get some new
blood as well, but in the end is the ratio worthy of it? Will you get rid of
the undesireables or will you be getting rid of the players you need to
keep?"

Winnowill is for skills and magic, very avid fan of Chaosium. No further
though no HP, nothing like that, but restraints on what a char can do, and
concurrently, this gives players something to build, and get RP ideas off
of. Learning a skill, working on finding someone to train them, ect.

Natil says "Rhaevin, we are avidly aware that the players as a whole mostly
want to play elves. :)"

Redstar nods, "The chaosium system works very well, even in nodified states.
the points, as suggested, can be put towards upping magics, or skills."

Traest notes he, for one, has no idea what "the choasium system" is. :)

Gentlestorm agrees with Larias, "SE had a rumor code system and folks didn't
wish to use it so it didn't fly. I've been on an RPnom system and I DESPISE
them. I'll suffer with it but I've found that people do not vote for one
another. Again, it has to be something folks want to do. Also, those systems
depend on who your friend is and how well the nomination system is built.
I'm a psychometrician. Most systems are... about as useful as a mailed
survey?"

Natil says "The big point of having someone in charge of humans and trolls
is not necessarily to advocate that we absolutely have to recruit players
into playing those races--but more to have a framework in place by which
players can actualy step into playing those races if need be. :)"

PreyRunner nods to Winny :) modify it a little, update it, allow a character
to run through chargen and be complete... don't make it take more then 73
hours /TOPS/ to get magic approved, since all tribes have racial allotments.

Natil says "'cause usually, what we get in terms of human activity on the
game is 'which NPC human hunter has killed off some elf's NPC parents this
week?'"

PreyRunner says "Traest, Chaosium made the Elfquest RPG :)"

PreyRunner says "I've got it in PDF, if people want it."

You say "Which I do not have, nor reference :)"

Rhaevin says "There's a 'voting' system on the MU* I'm on currently, but
then they also based the MUsh very closely on the RP book it was based off
of."

Natil will, she thinks, elaborate a bit on the strong points of the Aether
+nom/points system. More coming....

Ashi has arrived.

Natil says "#1: It was driven by the players. People consistently left
excellent commentary for each other about why they liked and didn't like
what someone did in a scene. Players were also the ones driving the votes;
the staff involvement was only at the level of actually launching the +nom
code on a monthly basis. So the staff got to remain a bit more impartial.
<more coming>"

Natil says "#2: It provided monthly, visible rewards for people who actually
got off their asses and learned to visibly roleplay, and participate in the
game. Since what we're hearing a lot from players these days is how badly TM
sucks in the RP department--hands up, folks, if you're sick of the 'who's
joining with whom this week?' level of tinyplotting--the 'Tell People They
Should RP Better' approach clearly isn't working. We need some sort of way
to actually reward people. <more coming>"

PreyRunner says "Reminds me of Cuendillar MUSH, not that I can tolerate it.
It's too tightly controlled, killed off the players, even if it's back
again. Player driven rewards help fuel interaction."

Natil says "Now, these things said--I will also plainly acknowledge that one
of the big drawbacks of this kind of system is that players will inevitably
get too hung up on how many +noms they get. If that sort of thing is
important to your ego, it can be deflating to see only one short +nom on
your character or none. But in my experience on the game, that was the
exception rather than the rule, and I'm willing to run that risk for the
sake of giving players a way to actually be rewarded for good RP and to
advance their characters in meaningful ways. Superior players can and will
come up with ways to amuse thesmselves in RP and won't CARE about how many
points they're wandering around with--but we're kind of to the point,
people, that we can't expect everybody to be superior. We can't expect
everybody to be a stellar RPer, and some folks just need that obvious carrot
dangled in front of 'em."

Natil is done now.

Rhaevin says "TFOS's voting system is once a week, five votes per player, if
you don't use them... oh well. The votes reward with .1 of a full point,
when enough is accumulated you can use the points for skills and such."

Natil nods. Aether did something similar. Votes affected your monthly point
total and you could then convert those to new points for your character. The
higher you got a given skill, the more expensive points for that skill would
get.

Gentlestorm is sorry but has never seen a helpful RPnom system. "I'm glad
this one worked, but I'll wait to analyze the data."

Natil says "Fair 'nuff. :)"

Natil says "Anyway, I bring this all up by means of letting you know that
this is an issue we're already actively thinking about a solution for. But
it's one of many, unfortunately."

Natil says "Winnie, I saw a thing you said back there in my buffer that I'll
touch on now."

Gentlestorm says "I will say that a rumor system would be MOST helpful, to
me."

Natil says "That is the idea of putting newbies into a 'Newbie Town' kind of
situation and making them start off playing humans, before graduating up to
elves or what have you. <more coming>"

Winnowill nods and awaits the smackdown..its not a great idea i know.. but
just throwing them out.

Natil says "There's a tricky balance to this. We ARE an Elfquest MUSH.
People are going to want to play elves, pretty much. Period. Now, Sora has
told us Staffers about how Elendor works--but there's a big difference
between Tolkien and Elfquest, and that being that the Tolkien world makes
ALL the races interesting to one degree or another, not just the humans or
the elves or the hobbits. :)"

Gentlestorm says "That's better than offering nothing, Winny. I'm not
complaining."

Natil says "No smackdown, I assure you!"

Gentlestorm hmms and raises her hand.

Natil says "I am concerned that if we force players to go into one of the
'undesirable' races first, they're just going to go away and not bother.
Because if we can't hand them an elf, they will say 'why am I here?' One
moment, GS..."

Ashi says "I remember that from a mud I once tried out.. you went through
various rooms, aquired items and knowledge from various NPC's.. and after
completing certain tasks for them you graduated in status as a player.."

PreyRunner says "Mud school :)"

Winnowill says "im pretty sure that 80% of the people that would play that
way would drop the human chars once they got an elf, but 20% might not, and
at least everyone would get a taste of playing a human, and might have some
fun."

Natil says "Now, at the same time, we also have an idea in the works about
implementing a lesser version of this, just focused on elves, which is to
say that any newbie coming in can start off with a member of the Scattered
Tribe right off the bat, and from there, if they wish, either join an
established tribe with that character or app for a character in a different
tribe."

Ashi nods. =)

Natil nods to Winnie, and dings GS. Question?

Gentlestorm wryly notes that she should've raised HIS hand since some don't
know she's female...whatever. "There is an additional thing I hate to bring
up yet again. Somehow, folks are going to have to recall that this is an
ICA=ICC place. Somehow folks are going to have to be willing to take risks
with their precious characters and I'm sorry, but... character depth here
SUCKS. I play with flat characters all day here. Where are the dynamic ones?
So... how do we help folks develop those characters? That is another problem
to tackle related to this KINDA.. but for later. =)"

Natil says "You're absolutely right, GS. :) Character depth here _does_
rather suck."

Natil thinks about that.

Gentlestorm says "I've been working on that.."

Gentlestorm says "If you want the truth."

Gentlestorm says "I can send you what I have... it's a pilot though..."

Gentlestorm says "I tried it out with Djhala and he said he could answer
most of the questions for his character. I don't know if a sheet of
questions would help but... I'm willing to share it and the one I've got is
tailored to TM."

Larias is interested

PreyRunner says "Questionaire for depth? Sure, put it in chargen as a web
link to define the character."

Natil asks, "GS, can you do me a favor and go compare that list against what
I've got on the character creation primer page?"

Natil says "If it has stuff I don't get into on the primer on the TM site,
I'm certainly willing to rework the content there.
http://www.twomoonsmush.org/primer"

Redstar grins, "GS, have them visit Winnie a while, she'll give them a few
experiences they'll never forget.

Winnowill blushes.

Natil hehs. Some of my best RP on the game remains with this and that
version of Winnowill. :)

PreyRunner icly flashes Winny, just think of what the mountain would do :P

Ashi keeps dusting Winny with more rouge.

Natil is still very fond of the log of little 12-year-old Wayfound having an
intellectual discussion with the Mountain Lord. ;)

Rhaevin looks at Winnowill, her evil twin, and smiles.

Winnowill acks.. "enough enough.. too much pressure! :)"

Gentlestorm sorries her mother called. She'll comply. =)

Natil says "Any other thoughts people want to go over"

Natil ?

Redstar says "In a mush I frequent, they have various things which must be
answered in your background, to justify how you got there, when, where, and
other little details. If in your +sheet a certain stat was a bit high, that
had to focused on to explain, like how a computer geek knows about street
brawling, and electronics."

Gentlestorm notes that the sheet she made has that too...

Redstar says "One thing, that I mentioned earlier, and on the LJ, we need a
few things for the staff in general, meaning all of them down to the wizzes.
Not just log-on criteria. While I think that staff shouldn't pave PCs,
though its not a half bad idea, they should have a few extra restrictions to
make sure they do their job, or step down. 10 minutes a week is good, but
not good enough."

Natil would be violently opposed to denying staff PCs.

Gentlestorm dittos Natil. "Sorry."

Natil says "I mean, I'm not RPing at all right now to speak of, but I would
really be seriously pissed off if I weren't permitted a PC to RP with when I
wanted to."

Sora says "The thing about Elendor, is that you aren't forced to play an
undesireable race. You just have to start out with a basic original
character before you're allowed to move up to the cooler ones. One here,
it'd be something more like starting in one tribe before being allowed to
move into another, or create another character in another. Then you're
allowed a BC at the bottom rung, and work your way up the BC ladder. By the
way, this doesn't create alts all over the place. Elendor has a limit of 2
alts, and they cannot be on at the same time. It was frustrating at first,
but I got used to it."

Sora says "I'd be upset too."

Natil says "To quote Yun's typist: "If it's work, I want a paycheck."
Denying the Staff PCs would make the game _work_."

Winnowill does feel the need to comment on this.

Natil says "Lay it on us, Winnie. :)"

Natil (can, I will add, grudgingly see an argument for not letting the Staff
play _Features_. Or, arguably, high-powered magic-users. However, I'd be
really seriously opposed to denying Staff any PCs _at all_. :) )

Winnowill I have a severe issue with a staffer whos idea of creating RP, is
to do things with *their* characters. While that sometimes does get the
"job" done, it defeats the purpose of their position. Players only end up
getting taken along for the ride. The same thing happens when say you write
up and work on a great TP idea, submit it, and first you get a "that's not a
really good idea, then.. well if _____ says its ok.. I trust them.. then you
get.. Well my alt could do this and this and this, can I do that, ect and so
forth. RP driven by, and for the benefit of THEIR PC. Of course I'm only
human and so are they, so It could be a misconception, buts its a repeat
issue.

Winnowill deny staff PC's hell no.. but maybe they need a little bit of
overview as to how they use them.

Sora says "I think part of that problem is that, well, one of us has way too
many chiefs."

Sora says "way too many alts."

Sora says "when I became staffer, I dropped a couple of my characters."

Larias looks around guiltily, "You don't mean me do you?"

Winnowill is not gonna name names.. but Sora.. I think you are talking about
the same person.

Redstar says "I'd rather have a PC to RP with so help ease the stress being
a staffer brings. From the chiefs all the way up to the wizards, they should
put in at least an hour or two a week to their duties, unless they do state
they are gone for a while, then, someone should be found to help take up the
slack for that period. We all need time to see what's going on and field
questions from any needing help. Perhaps a limit on the PCs a staffer can
have so they can focus on their jobs."

Larias says "Does staffer = chief?"

Sora says "And once you become a staffer, you shouldn't have too many other
obligations. one chiefbit besides the staff bit is ok, but more than that,
and you're looking at conflicting interests."

Sora says "No."

Sora says "I believe it goes wizard, staffer, royalty, chief, right?"

Natil just has a fundamental issue with expecting Staff to give up all RP at
all--that being, the whole point ANY of us are on these games to begin with
is the fun of roleplay. And if you care enough about a game that you
volunteer to help staff it, but then you're told you can't actually PLAY ON
THE GAME anymore--where's the _FUN_?

Sora agrees with Natil on that. "But you can have fun with 1, 2, or maybe 3
more alts... Frankly, I think even some of the players have too many alts,
and I did at one time too.

Winnowill does not disagree with you Natil, but where as you don't want them
to give up on RP, I don't want to see them monopolize it. And honestly,
lately. i feel like its close to that.

You say "We avoid royalty since the bit confers stuff in the MUSH server
that really isn't expected. Besides, don't really need a third level"

Natil says "That said, the notion that staff should take hard looks at their
current IC and OOC obligations on the game before taking on a staff position
is totally rreasonable."

Redstar nods, "I agree, Natil. While it is a good idea, I'd rather have
those PCs to work off stress and have fun with."

Natil says "The Power Structure of the MUSH:"

Rhaevin says "Perhaps set a max limit on Staffer PC's and make it an
obligation that they also not hold Chief positions?"

Natil says "#1 - Wizards. Wizbits confer game/database manipulation power.
Also, unless otherwise specifically stated (i.e., ME), if you're wearing a
wizbit you also have voting admin privs on the game."

You say "The Hoover Dam provides power by the Colorado River passing over
turbines. That power is then sent down high-voltage transmission lines to
Las Vegas. Then through a couple substations to a UPS the... oh you meant
bits :)"

Natil says "#2 - Royalty. Royalty get limited extra admin powers with a
royalty bit. We don't have any Royals right now though it can be argued that
I should be more a Royal than a Wiz. I don't need Wiz privs to run the News
or the web page."

Redstar grins at Traest.

Natil says "#3 - Staff. Staffbits convey no special powers to manipulate the
database. They are purely marker flags."

Sora sniffs.

Natil says "#4 - Chiefs. Chiefs are sort of.... 'unoffical' staff. And at
this point we're at the tribal level."

Redstar grins, "its not bad being a low level staffer. A lot less stress."

Gentlestorm says "Amen!"

Sora says "To tell the truth, if all I had was a staff bit, and a chief bit,
it wouldn't be so bad."

Gentlestorm says "Being a chief is the ONLY way I can presently help..."

You say "We do have, presently, 'we like to see' limits on how many hats a
person can wear"

You say "There are a couple violations, but generally, we limit players to
one major character (either a staff bit or feature character) and one minor
character (minor feature or chiefbit)."

Redstar says "There should be a limit on how alts one can have around here."

Sora says "I agree, Redstar. I'd gladly limit mine if I had to."

You say "So, having a staff bit and a chiefbit is okay. Having a staff bit
and, say, Winny, would be a little excessive."

Sora says "Er, well... some of us manage, Traest."

You say "Yes, I know :)"

Larias heh, "Wiz and Cutter? I don't think thats excessive...."

You say "Like I said, there are violations, that we allow on a case-by-case
basis."

Rhaevin nods, "A limit on alts, but not a force on what you should play. If
a player wants to play four elves (prefereably all in different tribes),
that's fine, they shouldn't be forced to have a human alt or a troll alt if
they really have no interest in playing one."

Sora says "I have a staff/chiefbit (that's in one alt), and a BC/chiefbit
(that's in one alt). Mostly because those chiefbits needed someone to fill,
and I volunteered."

Rhaevin looks to Traest, "Maybe that's the problem though. Maybe there
shouldn't be a 'case by case' basis, maybe you need to draw the line in the
sand and stand on it, no exceptions."

Ashi waves and has to work in 5 hours.. would stay longer, but I need
sleep.. sorry! Night. =)

Ashi has disconnected.

Redstar nods, "All I've got is this chiefbit, but it does gain attention
when guests appear and no other staff is availble.

You say "If someone is able to handle it, we don't want to stop them from
filling the positions. If we had an overabundance of people, we probably
would, but we have a lot of unplayed BCs and a lot of unfilled staff slots."

PreyRunner has Prey and an alt in the same tribe, I'm weird :P

Sora says "Prey, I might have to drop WC... when school starts, I'm going to
have too many things to do."

Redstar has alts in Prey's tribe. She was before joining them.

Redstar says "was weird. heh"

PreyRunner nods to Sora, "That's fine, she's not been active."

Sora says "well, really, she was a whim character, and those don't last."

Larias is curious: How many alts do folks have?

PreyRunner has a whopping 2! :)

Winnowill says "5 well 4 and 1/2 really"

Redstar only has five, and four are actually used regularly.

Sora says "I have too many at the moment. Shendia and Nightrose are a pair,
as NR is a child character. Yuki is going to get idledested soon, I want it
to happen. WC will be booted, as she is... just too shallow."

Gentlestorm says "I have four but I have two up for others to play."

Gentlestorm only plays Gentle/Snowstorm. <snork>

Rhaevin has a totall of four, three technically as one is in deep freeze for
a bit.

Natil has one IC alt left in the database.

Natil is not currently playing her much.

Sora says "I have a troll, just to have it in the tribe if I need to use it
for a TP, but if I can give someone else the trolls, I'll no longer have the
troll char."

Sora says "So... after I clean house, 4."

Natil has the keys to Ynderra, daughter of Tyleet and Graymist.

Sora says "By the way, please ask around if someone wants to help out, and
take over caring for the Trolls. I"m NO GOOD at TPs."

Winnowill has a hard question to ask. "Do any of us honestly believe, no
arguing about this, just yes or no. That the current issues can be fixed,
without a reboot. Honestly, no massive changing of personalities, no +nom,
or char sheets, fundamentally, do we think that this ship can float?"

PreyRunner says "Yes... it's possible."

Sora says "I think the fundamental issue is, Are people still interested in
Elfquest?"

Redstar says "I'm better at describeing, making histories, and building than
coming up with TPs myself."

PreyRunner says "That's the big issue."

Sora says "If they aren't nothing we do will keep us afloat much longer."

Winnowill says "i think less and less Sora, the reader base is aging."

Larias says "Sadly Sora, I think the answer is no. At least, not currently."

Redstar says "Very few people are interested in ElfQuest, let alone know
what it is."

Larias says "But I think I read something about new stories or something
coming, and that could help"

You say "We are running into that problem that we cannot control... The
Pinis haven't released anything new in forever."

You say "I keep hoping that movie comes out :)"

Sora says "I think it'd take the movie to get people to come back to us."

Redstar will be getting the first 20 comics off her brother when she goes to
visit her mom next.

Natil thinks.

Sora says "Fact is, people aren't reading it, and people are turning more
and more to MMORPGs."

Winnowill says "then that might be a real serious issue, if we cannot get
new payers, and a large amount are going to quit if we re-start. Shooting
ourselves in the foot."

Sora says "everquest, final fantasy, phantasy star online."

Larias says "SO.. is mushing obsolete?"

PreyRunner says "Nope."

PreyRunner says "Not at all."

Sora says "well, not entirely."

Winnowill says "MMORPG's suck, I hate to keep paying for a game. :P"

Redstar says "We, as fansof the comics and the art, should be out there
advertising anyway. That's how I found a good player for an alts lifemate."

Sora says "I see so many people on elendor, and on harry potter mushes."

PreyRunner says "People find a theme, get tired of it, move to new theme,
rinse, later repeat..."

Sora says "So I guess it's more our subject. :nods at Prey:"

Gentlestorm has only this MU and one other. "I'm stubborn. I tend to stick
to a few."

Winnowill says "should we add an option to the poll. "Close the door?""

PreyRunner got rid of all games except for 2.

Larias has no one to advertise to Red... MUSHing is not what lawyers do in
their off time. They sail on yachts and crap like that.

Natil notes, "I can't edit the poll that's already posted. LJ doesn't let me
do that."

Sora says "I admit, I'm getting bored with TM and elendor, b/c there's no
RP."

Sora says "If there were RP, I'd stay where I as."

Sora says "was*"

Natil also notes, "If I had time to RP again--I honestly wouldn't be RPing
here still."

You say "It's a catch-22 type problem"

Gentlestorm sighs, "I love to RP... but usually, I end up with Djhala....or
Savah..."

Natil says "Because the IC world as it stands is just _not_ interesting to
me, and I don't think it would be even if we had a hugely active, regularly
responsive chief and staff and wizard contingent."

Gentlestorm is not someone's RP genie.

Redstar says "I'm too stubborn to let a game die. Just ask Prey. Most of my
actual RP is either here, Cat's haven, or in Eternity, though I still go to
other games for a change of atmousphere."

Sora says "As I told GS earlier tonight, we're too specialized. Things like
Tolkien, or even original themed mushes, are more palatable. and then
there's the HP mushes, xmen, matrix... they're hot, we're not."

Sora says "oh, and the anime and furry themed mu*s."

Rhaevin says "There are people out ther I love to RP with, or used to, when
they're around. And then others have gone and mucked some stuff up for me.
One player in particular leaps to mind."

Gentlestorm GAGS... "Furries... " ;)

PreyRunner hmphs :P

Larias knows how that is Rhae...

Redstar eyes GS.

PreyRunner resembles that remark.

Winnowill says "F___ Furries"

PreyRunner smirks.

PreyRunner says "Not all furries want TS."

Redstar says "come say that to sabbath, Winnie. *wink*"

Sora says "Some of us like playing them for RP value, thanks."

Natil is hanging in there doing what OOC duties I can to support the game
out of love for the place, but honestly admits that the IC world just isn't
interesting to me anymore.

Larias says "Friendly Furries? Fun furries? Funky Furries?""

Natil says "Can we get off the subject of dissing furries, please, people?
:)"

Sora says "Natil, I've pondered leaving the game."

Larias has as well Sora

Gentlestorm eyes Prey's TS remark and points to her +finger where the other
info is...

Sora says "But like Redstar, and I can't walk away and let it die."

Winnowill smiles "Too True Red, just had to get it off my chest. Moving on."

Natil says "Part of why the game isn't interesting to me IC as it stands
kinda got addressed on the LJ thread--the elves are inherently _static_."

Gentlestorm dittos Sora. "Especially while this degree is my sword of
Damocles."

Natil says "This is a huge problem all over Elfquest's timeline. The culture
of the various tribes _does_ _not_ _change_."

PreyRunner agrees, "I've been sorely tempted to let Prey idle out and die..
I haven't, because I invested a third of my life here."

Natil says "So in order for interesting RP to happen, outside influences
have to happen."

Sora says "Tolkien's world has orchs, and sauron, and ents, and ... fun
stuff. HP has the dark lord, and magic, and school..."

Gentlestorm says "Look, we've deviated from the Pini's vision in our
history. Why can't we just say that the elves are moving more?"

Larias says "And players have to react to them... the twins, they were
outside influences, and there has been little reaction from effected folk"

Natil says "We could, Gentlestorm, but that wouldn't necessarily work."

Sora says "Problem is, people like _safe boundaries_."

Redstar says "I've seen very litle of the twins."

Gentlestorm sighs and doesn't.

Gentlestorm says "One could ask Savah about that."

Winnowill will offer herself up to get to her usual antics of screwing with
all non glider.. well all elves honestly. If we think it will help. Ive been
focusing primarily on keeping my house in order, but Ive messed with LH on
several occasion,s raft too.

Larias says "They were right by lost holt for about 4 months, though this
was awhile back, don't think Red was even in the holt yet"

Natil nods. Yeah, people do like their safe boundaries, by and large. And
when people come to a game, they want to be able to play the concepts they
know and love.

Gentlestorm doesn't understand RP with safe boundries. "My initial games HAD
no safety net."

Larias says "Same here GS. Is much fun!"

Natil says "If we get too far away from what's actually in the books, we
stop seeming like Elfquest to people."

Redstar would rather have something unexpected come up that can put her
characters in danger, possibly kill them, just to keep things interesting.
Kidnappings, fires, plagues, war, anything to kep us on our toes.

Natil says "Ah, but here's the rub--"

Sora says "Exactly, Natil. We become something loosely based on it."

Gentlestorm sighs, "Then the only thing to do, awful as it sounds is elves
in space. High Ones or EQ future version."

Natil says "We keep TRYING to throw these outside influences out--we
arguably need to be more organized about it--but a lot of the time, players
_don't_ _respond_."

Gentlestorm NODS!

Sora says "Honestly, I like safe boundaries. I'm a scaredy cat RPer, and I
don't htink I'm that good to begin with."

Natil is a middle of the road kind of person. I like to ground concepts
securely in the canon, but branch out to see how the canon can be bent. This
is why I invented Wayfound, the world's only scientifically inclined
Wolfrider. :)

Larias says "Then honestly Natil, if players don't respond, nothing that is
decided will work. It won't work unless folks want it to. Folks being wiz,
staff, chief and player alike. If one group is against it or simply doesn't
care, its going to fail."

Natil nods to Larias. Exactly.

Gentlestorm says "Thing is, many players expect to be spoon fed. I don't
have time to do that. I like people with imaginations and ... well... some
sense of adventure. I am here to create with others. Sometimes creation
means destruction... I guess that is why I could accept it if someone Killed
Snowstorm." She looks at Larias... "That's true.""

PreyRunner wants the potential for death, spontaneity, but it's true, elves
are Sedentary creatures, it goes against what they are to want to go
wandering.

Sora says "Of course, if we roll back time, to the time of the ten chiefs,
even before Goodtree, we're at a time when elves roamed all the time."

Larias hehs, "Even Savah has wandered. You can't get more sedentary than
her, save WInny... and even in the past Winny has wandered."

Redstar says "If any of you, besides Prey, were see some of what i do to my
characters, you'd think I was cruel at heart. One alt was badly injured, and
her wolf friend was killed of for the sake of RP. Another is amental basket
case with mood swings that can get scary. Red here, she met Winnie... nuff
said there. Doesn't have to be major, just something to excite the player."

Gentlestorm says "Two-Edge is proof of that. ;)"

Larias says "If it works for story, you can make it happen."

Natil chuckles softly, and thinks about the number of ways she's screwed
over her own characters over the years. :) Oh yes, I know all about the
angst. :)

Natil says "Oriolle spent thirty years being convinced she was a tree,
thanks to Doreel. ;)"

Rhaevin says "ICA=ICC is in place for a reason. If you want safe boundries,
there it is, if you want to ride the edge, go for it, push the envelope.
What I dislike is people who push taht envelope but aren't willing to pay
the piper." She takes a deep breath, "This STILL does not change the fact
that if you restart this MU* you might as well pull the sheet over it and
watch it die. Restarting is a good way to Kill a game."

Gentlestorm says "Red? I do that all the time with Snowstorm. Thing is, I
get tired of being everyone's entertainment."

Gentlestorm says "Yeah Rhaevin!"

Natil says "I can buy that under some circumstances, Rhaevin, but I'm also
seeing a lot of sentiment coming in off the LJ from other players that
restarting may well be the only way to give us the kick in the head that we
need."

Natil says "There is such a huge weight of inertia and apathy that a clean
slate seems actively appealing to at least some set of the population."

Larias nods in full agreement with Rhaevin. "I disgree Natil - without new
players to replace those that have stated they would leave, the MU would
die."

PreyRunner says "It's going to divide the game... the old timers don't want
to loose the invested time (for the most part) those who have been here
less, are more eager for it."

Larias says "And we've just covered the lack of a new players issue"

Rhaevin mumbles, "Oh and Red.. I do the same. My first character ended up in
the UW shortly after I came to TM and ended up in a cage. Nice introduction
to ElfQuest Mu*... but I loved it. I was even given teh chance to 'realize
what I was getting into' and went for it anyway."

Natil is just relaying that I'm seeing passionate argument on both sides of
this issue, folks. :)

Gentlestorm thinks that the OPTION to restart one's character would
reconcile the differences between the two though.

Larias erfs, "I disgree, that would get very confusing GS."

Sora has told her that.

Natil says "You're absolutely entitled to your own opinions on the
matter--just saying that take hard looks at your opinions, folks, and ask
yourselves.... if a majority of players on the game decided to vote for the
option you don't agree with, would you still leave the game?"

Rhaevin says "Natil if you Restart this mu you will just end up with the
same characters with new names with the same players and the same issues. If
people don't like their characters or tribe, then they need to go to a new
tribe with that char or make a new one and start fresh, but with this much
history we don't need to nuke it. Part of the appeal of this world is the
history we've built for it."

Redstar nods, "Same here, but you got to take the good with the bad. got to
do something to invent RP. Perhaps we should spring forward in time.
Chaarcters can be adjusted, or redone to fit. Maybe even wrapstuffed if
they're lucky. Just having that knowledge my chars can die, makes it worth
doing what i do. Red has come close twice already and MoonRose just once.

Winnowill says "as far as the restart goes? Ok lets say it happens, and the
handfull of people leave that say they will. Ok, so what 2-03 months tops,
the behavior hasn't changed and you are right back where you started, but
with less players."

Gentlestorm shrugs, "I don't disagree with your right to do so. But frankly,
there are some things I'd like to wipe out. I can live either way."

You say "I will put in my thoughts on restart, my personal thoughts. I think
it's a bad idea (see! Staff DO disagree! :)), because any way we do it seems
to lead to a quicker death. If we restart this MUSH, we're going to lose a
lot of players who are active enough to have commented on it. If we split
the MUSH and start a new one, neither one will get enough attention."

Larias says "Example: Betty and George are lifemates. Betty wants to
restart, but Geroge doesn't. What happens to the shared history?"

Natil says "I wouldn't want to see a character-level restart--just because
if you restart one character, you have to make everyone who's dealt with
that character have to restart their own characters."

Rhaevin says "Why do people want to restart, Natil, I still haven't heard a
good reason."

Natil says "Hold up while I answer that."

Natil frowns.

Natil says "I GAVE reasons. Did you not read them?"

Gentlestorm grins at Larias, "Thank the Goddess MY George ain't here. =)"

Rhaevin says "And not Staff's reason, the players reasons. Staff is here to
keep things entertaining, in the end the Players are what make a MU*."

Natil says "HOLD UP."

Natil sighs.

Rhaevin says "I did Natil, and they sound specifically Staff based."

Natil is starting to feel cranky and stressy here, she should warn, so
there's only so much longer I'm going to be able to deal with this if this
starts stressing me out.

PreyRunner rubs Natil's temples, "Deep breaths..."

Natil says "The reasons I gave you before, Rhaevin, are based on what we're
seeing _coming from players_."

Redstar offers some greentea with lemon.

Natil says "Not just what we personally as Staffers think."

Natil says "To reiterate, though I am rather annoyed that I am having to
repeat myself:"

Natil says "#1: The tribes are insular and too far apart IC to be believably
travelling around all the time. This is NOT ONLY STAFF OPINION; it is an
issue that has been raised to us time and time again over the years. It has
actively interfered with tribes' ability to RP with one another. People have
complained to us about this. It's a PROBLEM."

Rhaevin checks her buffer, "Okay, I see reasons as you can't get the tribes
to interact. The world's to 'big'. Humans and Trolls -NOT a reason to
restart in my book." She pats Natil, "Just let me reread my buffer, no
stress."

Sora says "We've never had the humans and trolls as a reason to restart."

Redstar says "In my honest opinion, Natil, to avoid a full restart, or
closing the game, is to bring the tribes closer together somehow, or skip
forward in time so that humans and trolls can be more interesting to play."

Natil says "#2: As I said--in order to provide a well-rounded world to the
playerbase--whether or not you guys think humans and trolls are worthy of
your personal attention, players TRY TO USE THEM. People are _constantly_
trying to put 'my parents/wolf/tribe/pet chihuahua were killed by the
nearest humans or trolls' into their backgrounds. It is HORRIBLY
disorganized of us to NOT provide some sort of reasonable NPC framework
through which people can do this in an organized fashion--and hells bells,
people, since we're ALSO hearing from the players that we NEED those outside
influences in order to BRING YOU BETTER ROLEPLAY, this means, we HAVE,
repeat, HAVE, repeat, HAVE TO CONSIDER THE OTHER RACES."

Larias says "Skipping forward in time, I could see that working, ... change
in venue, but keeping everything of the past, in the past - and offering
folks to do fillers for the time, could be neat... and we'd get to see
Cutter with the facefur, *wolf-whistle*"

Redstar grins at Larias.

Natil sighs. Frowns. Asks, "People--let me ask you from the bottom of my
heart--please try to remember that even if you don't necessarily personally
agree with something, this doesn't mean the other person is not offering a
good opinion or something that may well HAVE to be considered. Just because,
even if you think one path will kill the game, the other party may have
things in mind that you haven't thought about. Once more I'm going to say:
we have decided NOTHING yet. NOTHING. The Staff is not dead set on a restart
of any kind.

Natil says "With that, I'm also going to ask... someone please take over for
logging for me, if y'all want to continue discussing this."

You say "To be honest, everyone, this is all a major topic of debate amongst
absolutely everyone. There won't really be a solution that makes everyone
happy. No decision ever is. However, us staff can sit around fires and
bearskin rugs and smoke our pipes and pontificate all we want, but we do
need input from everyone. Thus the meet coming up, Natil's LJ post, and
this."

Natil says "I'm starting to stress, so I need to step away right now."

Traest flips logging on.

Sora says "I've been logging."

Natil says "Thanks folks."

Natil hugs all. Sorry for this--this is one of the reasons I HAVE to
function as a support staffer and not a full staffer. :(

Sora says "My log probably goes back to..... last night."

Natil says "Please feel free to hang out here if you wish; I'm going to log
out for a break and try to decompress. G'night y'all."

Natil bamfs.

Natil has disconnected.

Redstar will use her log output function to capture as well.

PreyRunner hugs Natil.

PreyRunner missed.

Sora blinks. "Wow, my log is nearly 24 hours long."

Redstar blinks at Sora, "Damn girl! didn't you slep?"

Gentlestorm blinks at Redstar and LAUGHS!

You say "Are there any other comments about the whole restart/no-restart
issue? This will be brought up again at the public meet, BTW. :)"

Gentlestorm says "Anyhow..."

Sora says "Oh, sure, but lately I've been leaving myself logged on. NOw I'm
glad I have, because I have all the stuff we've been talking about today."

Sora says "I have a cable modem."

Gentlestorm says "Restart or not."

Gentlestorm says "It'll change nothing if RP isn't changed. That's my POV.
<shrug>"

Sora says "I like both ideas, Traest. I think if we work at it, anything can
work. And if we don't have the player base, we just won't have it. We can
only do our best. But I'm only one person."

Larias says "If something does need to change, fast forwading in time, but
not too too far, would give folks a new venue, make at least humans more
interesting, allow me to terminate some extra alt baggage ;) Umm, yeah... I
guess then it wouldn't be a restart, but a fast forward. Pull tribes in
together, Lost Holt is now an amusement park and so LostHolt has moved to
the desert Oasis of Sorrows End, also known as Palm Springs. This is of
course an exaggeration, but you get the idea. Shrink where folks play,
combine tribes."

Winnowill is very much against re-start, as I said, I think it will not fix
things, just delay them, will be right back here after a restart.

PreyRunner is against the restart... but .. hrm, starting over and
reinventing MV, making my own 'book characters' would add coherency...

Rhaevin agrees with GS.

Gentlestorm says "Ashi and I were at one time willing to take on being
trolls. But our ideas were too radical... for the UNDERWORLD..."

PreyRunner is the kind of guy that hates BCs or FC's, I like my own
creations in the author's world, not the author's chars.

Gentlestorm says "So... there has to be some lifting of RP restrictions and
absolutes so that those who want to do risky characters can do so."

Gentlestorm says "Risky characters drive RP sometimes. <shrug>"

Rhaevin says "Talk to me about it GS, you know the UW has a new holder of
the reigns."

Sora says "Well, GS, you know that if you want trolls, you come to me."

Gentlestorm eh?

Gentlestorm says "Sora, it won't do a blessed bit of good. I'll CALL you to
tell you why."

Gentlestorm says "later."

Larias agrees, But only if folks want to play with them. Which, I've seen
first hand, 25% of players want to interact, 75% don't.

Sora says "Part of it is player apathy. They want us to hand them RP, and
when we do, it's not good enough for them."

Rhaevin says "I think it depends on who's handing the RP, Sora, in all
honesty."

Gentlestorm says "Hey... as a player, I am not, generally, apathetic. But
shoot me, bolt me, turn me away enough and I start not wanting to talk to
you."

Larias says "If thats the problem, we can type til our fingers turn blue,
and nothing said or done here will fix anything"

Sora says "Perhaps. But Maddi and Natil have both tried to do it, as has
Cory."

You say "We have been told there needs to be better communication of ongoing
TPs... we are working towards that goal... either with +rumors and global
rumors, and setting the Roleplay BBoard to never time out, and spamming you
all chiefs until you beg for mercy :)"

Sora says "I do have a question though, and it relates to alts. If we all
pared our alts down to one character, how many chars would we have?"

PreyRunner says "Not many :P"

Gentlestorm says "Traest? Did you hear what we said about radicals?"

Larias hehs, "Yeah, not many."

Rhaevin says "That same question, Sora, can be applied to the people who
have threatened to leave if there's a restart. :("

Winnowill says "Sora in response to your comment about the folks who have
tried to do it? I would say that the way that some of that has been done is
part of the problem."

Sora says "Maybe so, Winny."

Sora says "Traest, alot of MU*s have what's called an MOTD. You see it on
login, and you can see it again by typing +motd"

Gentlestorm says "Soars RIGHT by me."

Gentlestorm says "Never get to read the bloody things."

Sora says "I was wondering about the alts, simply to see how many players we
actually have, without the alts clouding it up."

Gentlestorm grunts, "That'd be nice. =)"

Larias does her count.... one moment

Sora says "For MOTDs, The Shire of Elendor has a 10 liner thing that lists
ooc plots, and IC activites, up to a month in advance."

Sora says "We even RP birthday parties there, weddings, deaths, etc."

Gentlestorm says "They are so far up that what I have after it scrolls it
by. I KNOW I'm not the only one with that problem."

Sora says "If elves are sedentary, imagine the Hobbits!!!"

You say "That's the reason why +rumors's auto-connect would be on a
15-second delay :)"

Gentlestorm says "What's better, I've had that problem for over 10 years!
Screen helped with that problem though... I refuse to go back to the dark
days."

Sora says "The MOTD on Shire is last thing you see, unless you modify your
@connect to show you your mail, etc."

Winnowill hrms.. ok Winny needs beauty sleep. Larias, could you grab a log
of what I miss deal and email it to me?

Gentlestorm can and will backup log this just in case OTHER logs fail. =)

Winnowill says "Puh-leeeeze? :)"

Larias was actually just getting ready to head out herself

Sora says "I'll have one."

Winnowill says "Will log be posted, oh great people who are sticking
around?"

You say "Log will be posted somewhere"

You say "Probably on the TwoMoons website"

Sora nods.

Redstar says ":rey and I are sticking around."

Larias pops off to bed so she can wake up with her munchkin

Traest's on for three more hours for anyone who wants to talk about this
more. ;)

Winnowill says "killer, ok thanks, this was overall good for me I think. See
you IC.. if your Unlucky.."

Winnowill has disconnected.

Larias has disconnected.

Gentlestorm makes a face.

Rhaevin needs to get her kiddo to bed and herself as well.

Redstar paints Winnowill neon pink then draws a mustache on her while she
has the chance. *innocent smile*

Gentlestorm says "I'll listen. I've said all I can."

Gentlestorm ROTFL at Redstar!

Sora has no life, so will be on a while.

Gentlestorm says "Just remember to +mail her so she can change her desc. =)"

Redstar giggles, "nah, just call her pinkie."

Gentlestorm says "Is anyone going to discuss anything else atm?"

Gentlestorm says "If not, I say we adjurn with what we have."

PreyRunner says "What can we do to bolster what's left?"

Redstar says "We can, as chiefs, take this time to +mail our tribes, let
them know to bring us their complains/suggestion, and also set it our
respective boards."

You say "Unless someone has other thoughts, on the restart, or the points
system, or what-have-you... I'm mostly interested in thoughts on points, at
the moment, but that's me :)"

Sora says "adjourn, GS. :P English major who can't spell."

Sora says "I"m talked out, really."

PreyRunner says "Points, as in chargen?"

Gentlestorm says "Better: English TEACHER who can't spell! =)"

Sora says "Points, as in a +sheet like other mu*s have."

PreyRunner says "I'm all for it. You get the file yet, Traest?"

Sora says "Point to dist. to base stats, magics, and skills."

Gentlestorm says "To be frank, points suck."

Traest has gotten the file, but not read it yet. Been working on my resume
:)

Redstar says "Yeah, the points system could very well help out a lot, and
with a reward system, give players goals to better their RP skills."

Gentlestorm says "But we have them in a limited way with the +magic system,
right?"

PreyRunner nods to Traest :) and grins at GS.

Gentlestorm has yet to see a good RPnom system.

Sora says "GS, I think they can make a well rounded character, and it would
let people feel like they have some control over how they're stats are
loaded."

You say "Well, more specifically, I suppose, the idea of the +nom system for
nominating players to get votes"

Sora says "I don't like RPnoms though."

Gentlestorm says "It mucks up the RP!"

You say "Errr, to get points"

PreyRunner says "How so?"

Gentlestorm says "Sorry."

Gentlestorm pages.

Sora says "I don't like RPnoms. Not everyone votes, and people vote for
their friends."

Sora says "We can do a +sheet points system without noms."

Gentlestorm allows SORA to talk about it. =)

Rhaevin goes home.

Rhaevin has left.

Redstar would like to have encouragement to do better, or for coming up with
a plot that gets a lot of interest.

Gentlestorm says "But it has the problem of backfireing."

You say "The +nom system does have, at least as coded presently, safeguards.
You cannot vote for the same person twice within a two month interval, for
example."

Redstar nods, "True, but so do a lot of things.

Gentlestorm says "What if the person is foreign and doesn't speak English
well?"

Gentlestorm says "What about LD?"

Sora thinks, screw the heartburn, and gets a smirnoff.

Gentlestorm says "RPnom depends on your ability to WRITE. Even jobs give
accommodations for that. MUSHes do not."

Redstar says "You take those things into consideration. I've met RPer that
don't write, or speak english well, and yet they do wonderful scenes.
something like that, you do on a case-by-case. Are they good? Are they at
least trying? Things like that to get your vote."

PreyRunner tends to find that people NOT from the US take the time to write
correctly. Laziness does not deserve reward.

Gentlestorm says "Traest, what if the person deserves to be voted for? And
how can you take those things into consideration Redstar? There is no way."

Redstar notes her keyboard is flaking out. Some buttons don't work well
unless she tries to kill them.

PreyRunner says "Sure you can, you decide if the person you rp'd with
deserves the point."

Gentlestorm says "NOT if there is that rule about voting limits."

Gentlestorm points up in the peruse buffer.

PreyRunner says "Once every 2 months is too far, I say no more then 1 a
week."

Gentlestorm says "Traest said it."

Gentlestorm sighs.

You say "Well, the once in 2 months restriction was 2 fold: 1) To keep
friends from constantly +nom'ing friends. However, that sort of thing would
set off bells anyway."

Gentlestorm says "May I put my bias out in the open, folks?"

You say "The other reason was to try and nudge to get people out to play
with people outside their normal group"

PreyRunner says "Nothing's stopped you so far, GS :)"

Gentlestorm says "Glad you noticed! =)"

Gentlestorm says "Stopping me is what Sora is for, I guess. She's across the
street."

Gentlestorm says "Anyhow... I write things like ... what that RPnom crap is
supposed to do... as a profession."

Sora grins. "Across the street trying to relax with some smirnoff ice, and
not inclined to step outside after having partaken of drink."

Gentlestorm says "The systems I've seen are CRAP to be honest. The ranking
system isn't distributed so that it is user friendly."

Gentlestorm says "They SUCK to use. They are generally so open to
interpretation that their actual use is laughable."

Sora says "RPnoms annoy me, really. I am just... I don't know, lazy, or
forgetful, or something, to have to remember to rpnom everyone I RP with. I
hate the idea of judging someone above another, just to give them some
vote."

Gentlestorm says "I'd rather have a system that can help me RP better as an
individual before I see and have to use someone's HACK job at being a
psychometrician without training."

Gentlestorm is finished.

Sora says "There are ways to use a point system without rpnoms, and ways to
encourage rp without it as well."

PreyRunner says "Ok, I see your side, Gentle... but how would you do what
you ask?"

Gentlestorm EH?!

Gentlestorm says "Your request is ... garbled?"

Gentlestorm says "Sorry, could you say that another way?"

PreyRunner says "You want a system to make you a better role-player, ....
how? what do you mean?"

You say "How would you do it? :)"

Gentlestorm eyes Sora, "You really ARE drinking?"

Sora says "Yes, I am having a bottle of smirnoff ice."

Gentlestorm says "With research and design using the instrument bank at the
university."

Sora says "I will not become drunk or typsy, just relaxed. It'll take the
rest of the damn six pack (there's four left) for me to become tipsy."

PreyRunner says "That doesn't make any sense, GS?"

PreyRunner is trying to understand your point.

Gentlestorm says "And if you are talking about a professional design, that
means I'd start with an open ended pilot and design things from there. The
fastest way would be to use performance based instruments and adapt them to
MUSH use."

Redstar says "Howwould you implement it here to use?"

Gentlestorm idly notes that she is attempting to come up with another word.
"Look.. it would be like adapting a carreer survey to work on the mush to
find out what kind of elf would be best for a person."

PreyRunner doesn't get the 'performance based instruments'

PreyRunner ahs, ok. How do you impliment it?

Gentlestorm says "That is as simple as I can get. Instruments are the
actual... questions. Popular instruments are the SAT, ACT, GRE, MAT, etc..."

PreyRunner says "Is anyone else confused? I... don't see it."

Traest blinks.

PreyRunner says "Or explain it to me? :)"

Sora says "She wants to apply her statistics stuff to the mush."

Redstar ahhhhs.

Sora says "Stuff to analyze performance of people, and put them where they
belong, the let them flourish easily."

PreyRunner says "Ok... to what end? that's what I don't understand."

Sora says "It'd let us know people's strengths and weaknesses as RPers
within a well defined margin of error."

Gentlestorm gehs, "I was explaining why the RPnoms are a bunch of usless
shit."

Gentlestorm says "Applying stats here would be fun though. =P"

PreyRunner is trying to see a practical example, But to me, that doesn't'
explain it, GS, it's like 2 different languages :P

Sora says "It is, Prey."

PreyRunner feels better? :)

Traest thinks this is a MUSH and not a PhD thesis :)

Sora says "I only barely understand, and we talked over dinner about it, IN
PERSON."

Redstar hehs.

Gentlestorm says "No, it wouldn't. You aren't familiar with the examples
that I could give you that are relevant either."

Sora says "GS sees RPnoms as inaccurate."

Gentlestorm says "Invalid and unreliable."

You say "Yet they work well elsewhere."

Gentlestorm says "AND pointless other than patting one another on the back."

Gentlestorm says "I didn't say they don't work."

Sora says "Traest, it's like voting in the US."

Gentlestorm says "Even burning a pan WORKS...."

Sora says "To a point it works... but really, not everyone votes."

Gentlestorm says "But I don't think pans were meant for burning."

PreyRunner puts out an idea, hear me out :)

Gentlestorm says "If the RPnom system does not improve RP, then it isn't
doing its intended job and there is no way for it to because there is no
feedback to the individuals being voted on except for a number. No why did I
get this or anything. It is like the teacher assigned you a D at the end of
the semester and you never saw a graded anything. <quiets down>"

You say "But you would see the comments."

You say "They'd be anonymous, but you'd see them."

PreyRunner says "Ok, basically. A different twist on RP noms, I've played
games where it's not simply x votes for y and the system automagically
awards points for rp. The best system I've seen is... I have a kick ass
scene with Red (Neat trick, but:P) I vote for her on a scale of 1-3 and
justify it. For example, +nom redstar=1/Had a fun hunt, several hours of
enjoyable rp... +nom restar=2/Intense scene, driving rp, it got others to
join in, active tribal rp. +nom redstar=3/That was the best rp I've seen in
months, it got the whole tribe involved, we all had a good time, logs posted
to ... bleh, you get the idea?"

PreyRunner says "Staff tabulates the votes and assigns accordingly."

Redstar grins and winks at Prey, "It could happen."

Sora says "Of course, there's nothing stopping people from TSing, and then
voting for that."

PreyRunner says "Sure there is. Staff knows when people never leave the
room."

Gentlestorm adds 0=didn't do jack, one liners, nothing to bounce from...

Gentlestorm GAGS about TS!

PreyRunner says "Or even -1..."

Gentlestorm says "SAVE me from that!"

Sora says "Not really. What if they only do it every two months?"

Gentlestorm mutters something about folks and certain players and
conversations and....

Sora says "Alot of people RP in one room."

PreyRunner says "Ts doesn't equal rp noms... get out and rp to qualify."

Gentlestorm grins at Prey, -1?

Sora says "What about people around the lake?"

Gentlestorm says "And how are you enforcing that one?"

PreyRunner says "Player was annoying, only one liners after repeated page
attempts to help, etc.."

Gentlestorm says "The ! this or that."

Redstar has honestly tried to keep her TS down to a minimum in the past year
on the fact too many think that its actual RP. TS should be the treat, not
the meal, as a friend had put it.

Gentlestorm says "Thing is, they can nom on what they want to and whenever
they wish. They won't even have to have a scene to nom."

Sora says "Right."

Sora says "Elendor, for instance, asks for LOGS for proof that you've sat
around and roleplayed in order to get features."

Gentlestorm eyes Redstar.

Gentlestorm says "TS... <shakes her head>"

PreyRunner says "It's a checks and balances... ok, I vote for red for +2,
you vote for +1 and someone else votes for +1, all for the same scene, she'd
get +1, because no one is saying she did bad, those there enjoyed, get it?"

PreyRunner says "Ignore the ts and stay on topic? :)"

Gentlestorm salutes, "Aye Aye, captain!"

Sora says "I"m just saying, it doesn't guarantee good roleplay scenes."

PreyRunner says "No... but it's better then blind voting."

PreyRunner says "And easier to track abuse."

Gentlestorm says "NOR does it assist."

Redstar says "If they see the comments, then they can try to improve on it."

PreyRunner says "Sure it does."

Sora says "I really don't think it'll prohibit bad RP."

Traest notes the +nom system would have other safeguards in place to try and
keep people honest. But, in the end equation, we will need to count on
chiefs and the like to warn us about people trying to get around things.

PreyRunner says "Where I played, the players got a +mail of comments, good
or bad along with their allotment."

Gentlestorm says "But then, what happens when there are two people in a
scene, Prey?"

Redstar says "Some people jsut refuse to do a well played scene no matter
what you try. Prey and I know a prime example in my game."

PreyRunner says "As long as it was in a publix room, I say it qualifies."

PreyRunner says "I log EVERYTHING as a matter of course."

Gentlestorm says "You know, I'd rather have a comment system and a natural
growth of power from being online an HOUR or so than an RPnom system."

Sora says "Oh, prey, you know people do private things in a public places."

PreyRunner has about 100 meg from 9 years of mushing.

Gentlestorm says "And that'd have to be an active hour."

PreyRunner says "And they're not supposed to, it's against the rules."

Sora lifts an eyebrow and grins.

PreyRunner says "There's always what ifs, and people trying to break the
rules, it's the chief's /job/ to keep their players inline."

PreyRunner says "And reward good behavior."

Sora says "I still like the idea of seeing logs."

PreyRunner says "As proof? that's a LOT of logs to be reading."

Redstar says "Getting logs out of peopleisn't always easy, even if it is to
justify a vote."

Sora says "I know."

PreyRunner says "If 3 people say X was a pain in the ass and out of no where
for that rp, one is a +2 etc... you can see someone's lying."

Sora says "I understand it isn't easy. But, well, It will help to give proof
to good RP. Heck, even if we have a"

Sora says "ack... nevermind that last bit."

Gentlestorm is with Sora.

Gentlestorm says "I'll take the logs."

PreyRunner says "You two share the same mind ;P"

Sora says "Or someone just thinks that asshole wasn't that bad."

Sora says "No, really, we don't."

Gentlestorm says "Frankly, the other thing about RPnoms is that they are
totally subjective."

Gentlestorm says "I think many rpers suck but then others think I suck."

Redstar says "You don't have to use them, either."

Gentlestorm says "I think I'm an average RPer."

Gentlestorm says "How are you going to account for perception in this system
so that all is fair?"

Redstar is an okay RPer, but has days when she's great, and days when she's
is very abd.

Gentlestorm says "Voting makes everyone equal in theory."

PreyRunner thinks GS's glasss is half full... you're looking for the worst
in each solution. None is perfect, but you go with what has a better chance
of succeeding.

Gentlestorm says "I'm looking at complications..."

Gentlestorm says "I warned you of my professional issues. =)"

PreyRunner nods, I've had sucky days and days where I really shine. You vote
accordingly.

PreyRunner says "It will average out."

You say "I would tend to agree. It seems like most people like the idea of
+nom. Admittedly, its not perfect, and will need tweaking as it gets used,
but, here's the main question, do we think it would honestly help the MUSH?"

Gentlestorm shrugs, "I'll fight them till the cows come home. I don't think
it will help, no. It'll discourage those marginal players because they never
get reward."

PreyRunner says "That, but it requires a real character sheet for it to mean
anything. Without the full sheet, it's worthless."

You say "The 'real' +sheet would be included in +nom"

PreyRunner nods, ok.

You say "Sorry, the two are linked in my mind because they're linked in the
code :)"

Redstar says "The +nom is something that would need a trial run to see if it
could help the game. That way, you can see if it is working, or being
ignored."

PreyRunner admits, I've not been fired up about this game in a LONG time,
but in the last week or so, new blood has rekindled my interest.

Sora agrees. "Trial is only fair.

Sora licks Prey.

You say "!!!!"

You say "G rated! G rated! :)"

Redstar says "And the return of an old player."

PreyRunner grins at Sora and refrains from licking back :)

Redstar slurps Traest.

Sora says "On the face!"

PreyRunner winks.

Sora says "Now who's r-rated?"

Sora grins.

PreyRunner declines to comment on the grounds it damn will incriminate me :P

Gentlestorm chuckles.

Redstar giggles, "Just ask, I'll whap him for ya."

Gentlestorm says "Traest, the word G-rated shouldn't be touching your lips."

You say "Alrighty everyone, we're degrading. :) Take what we've talked about
back to your tribes, get their input."

You say "I will put both these issues, and others, on the public agenda
that'll go out probably tomorrow."

PreyRunner will :) they're gung-ho on rp :)

Sora slurps Traest for good measure.

You say "Along with a link to this log"

You say "Minus the slurping"

Sora grins.

Gentlestorm says "I've got to <LOL!>"

Gentlestorm says "Yeah... that'd be GOOD."

Gentlestorm says "No slurping."

PreyRunner has it logged, so there ;)

Redstar grins, "But that's the best part. Make sure winnie being painted
pink stays though. Just for the laughs."

Sora has it logged. has the last 24 hours logged, muahahahahahahahahahaaaa.

Gentlestorm says "I'll check my character development sheet against what
Natil has."

Sora says "I have the staff channel looooggged!"

Gentlestorm says "Hey... I was on a mush for 24h ACTIVE. That was before you
had help to stay online."

Gentlestorm says "If I hadn't been building, I'd've logged it!"

Gentlestorm says "Folks, great talk!"

Gentlestorm says "We should do it more."

Gentlestorm says "It actually stimulates the brain... I think. =) ;)"

Redstar says "Traest, I wasn't kidding when said in one of my LJ posts that
I am willing to help where ever ways possible for them. What is there that
the staff needs?"

Sora says "Troll chief!!"

Redstar kills off Trolls. Bleah.

Gentlestorm LOL!

Gentlestorm WOULD help with the building but the Ph.D. stuff forbids.

PreyRunner says "Why does it forbid? Or you mean no time?"

Traest chuckles. "Well, staff is down to two wizzen, no builder wiz, and I
dunno what for staff. It's something staff is going to work out and mention
at the public meet however.

Gentlestorm says "Prey... have you ever tried to write your comps, teach,
design a full teacher's workshop, write a college level book, write your
dissertation, and do your research and all the steps that go with it all at
the same time?"

Redstar hehs, "I doubt you'd want me that close to the actual code, though I
can build/desc. You have no idea how much I want to go through Lost Holt and
put full descriptions to those rooms.

PreyRunner says "So the answer is, no time :P"

Sora says "Yeah, waht happened to our descs?"

Gentlestorm says "Right now, no."

You say "Huh? Which descs?"

Gentlestorm says "I can temporarily help though."

Gentlestorm says "I am not building or doing much in SE atm as I don't SEE
tribe members... oh... dash off the note... er... hmmm."

Redstar says "LH's descriptions. They're all tiny little one liners in the
public areas, mostly. They're fine as a temp desc, but after a while, it
grates."

Traest blinks. "You'd need to ask Cutter. I know he was redoing them long
ago, but thought that was long since done.

Redstar says "I just want to reach out and fill in the blanks so it'll look
nice."

Sora says "They disappeared when we switched the code over."

You say "Really?"

Sora says "I think so."

You say "How odd."

Sora says "and we'd ask cutter, except we don't see her too often."

You say "Can you give me an example room DB ref#?"

Redstar says "Gimme a sec to scroll back for one."

Redstar says "I can't see the DB#, bt Lost Holt clearing is a prime
example."

Gentlestorm says "Sora? CC'd you on the mail to the SEnders because of the
LARGE quantity of Solitaries we have."

PreyRunner says "Red, say loc(me)"

Gentlestorm says "You can forward to them or not. I already know as SS,
thanks. =)"

Redstar was last on the hill, and that has a slightly better description on
it.

You say "No room in the database named 'lost holt clearing'"

Redstar says "Hold on."

Gentlestorm says "I thought there was. =)"

Redstar grumbles.

Redstar says "There is."

Gentlestorm says "Try HOME, red. =)"

Redstar goes home.

Redstar has left.

Gentlestorm grins.

Gentlestorm says "When all else fails. Try the obvious."

Gentlestorm does this to herself ALL the time.

Sora says "k, i'm going to bed."

Gentlestorm says "'G'night!"

Sora heads towards Wizard Offices <Out>

Sora has left.

Redstar arrives from the Staff Offices.

Redstar has arrived.

Redstar says "Lost Holt Clearing. It is there."

Gentlestorm says "Db?"

You say "Got it, I'm an idiot :)"

You say "Holy cow"

No entry for 'overhear()'.

You say "Heh, this code isn't designed for TinyMUSH"

Gentlestorm says "Oh HELL.... I didn't just do that..."

You say "?"

Gentlestorm says "Nothing! Just my dunce cap for the evening."

Gentlestorm grins.

Gentlestorm says "And I don't code as you know."

Gentlestorm says "This I can not fix."

Gentlestorm says "Ashi can have at or you can. <sigh>"

Redstar is learning how to code.